The Wrestling Rebuttal: Three Reasons Wrestlers Dominate MMA
By Curtis Clontz on Sep 06, 2010
Last week MMAOpinion’s Josh Stein put together an outstanding piece regarding one of my personal favorite MMA topics; the wrestling debate.
His article in its entirety can be found here…
Those of you familiar with the Podcast know that Josh and I typically don’t see eye to eye. This is my rebuttal and the exact reasons that wrestlers dominate the sport of Mixed Martial Arts.
Dominate is a very strong word. It is surely going to draw a hand full of funny looks but that is the perfect word for the discipline in MMA.
If you were to pick a group of fighters that dominated, a great starting place would be the UFC Hall of Fame.
Mark Coleman – NCAA National Champ and Olympic wrestler
Randy Couture – NCAA Runner up (lost to MMA fighter Mark Kerr in Finals)
Matt Hughes – 2x NCAA All American
Chuck Liddell – D1 Starter
Dan Severn – 4x NCAA All American
The only other fighters in this illustrious MMA fraternity is Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie.
Ken Shamrock – The once King of Pancrase used a form of submission wrestling to jump start his legendary MMA career.
Royce Gracie – One of the founding father of American BJJ, Royce is arguably the most influential jits practitioner in the states.
All but two of the members of the Hall had some sort of wrestling back ground, meaning 5 of the best 7 MMA (UFC Type) fighters have been wrestlers. This is not a coincidence.
MMA is a true combination of combat skills. Due to the various ways to win, a fighter has to be well versed in many different disciplines.
Since the legalization of MMA, wrestling has been the most effective skill for many reasons. Here are three.
1. A wrestler is able to control the fight from almost any position of the bout. Something a jits guy, boxer, kick boxer, or Karate type can’t say.
If a wrestler is battling a standup fighter, then he can take them down.
(Couture vs. Toney)
If a wrestler is going against a jits guy, he can keep it standing.
(Liddell vs. Jeremy Horn)
2. Wrestlers have different body language. Early in a young wrestling career, they are taught how to maneuver their body to create leverage, angles, and momentum. Something not everyone in BJJ ever truly masters.
This body control helps tremendously (hip control). By knowing just how to move to make your opponent slide, step, or act, is a huge benefit in a sport that requires all of the above to be successful.
3. One of the most underrated reasons wrestlers do so well in MMA is their ability to react.
Many wrestling moves and counters require an athlete to explode. Many jits moves require finesse When you are tired, sweaty, and not thinking correctly putting together a flawless triangle is not easy. Let alone completing any advanced submission. Throw in punches and you could see how even the best jits guy can be taken out of his game. Reminds me of a famous saying, “punching a black belt in those nose makes him far less than a black belt”…
Wrestling coaches often teach that if you can’t be taken down, held down, nor reversed then you can’t be beat. In MMA you are at a huge advantage if you can not only control where the fight goes (fighting to your strength), control your hips (escaping, reversing, or completely avoiding submissions), and are able to explode into the perfect position at the ideal time, then you are extremely hard to beat.
The wrestling argument is one that is tough to dispute. Although Josh will indeed do so, I will battle this one forever. Wrestling is the most important discipline in MMA!
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I’m not sold, Curtis.
Look at the broader history of the UFC, as a sample for the most wrestling intense region of the sport (as opposed to, say, Pride or Pancrase) and you see a broad cross section spanning divisions.
Wrestlers have dominated the welterweight division since Pat Miletich and the lightheavyweight division since Frank Shamrock. But they split the heavyweight division with strikers almost down the middle and a wrestler has never held the UFC middleweight belt, and have only fought for it three times. I’m not convinced that there’s substantial dominance.
I knew you wouldn’t agree….lol
I guess once again we agree to disagree.
Although I can’t stand Brock, his wrestling has him sitting atop the heavyweight mountain… Many feel that the only makeup that can beat him is another huge wrestler… I think Mir could if he would stop blocking strikes with his face….
Dave Menne didn’t wrestle?
edub, Menne, from what I remember (though this may very well be wrong) was a submission guy, not a wrestler. He didn’t have a notable wrestling background.
Curtis, the presence of one heavyweight atop a major division isn’t a trend. The heavyweight division was dominated by wrestlers when it was formed, then it was dominated by strikers, and then by wrestlers again. There’s nothing that makes me believe that this trend in superior wrestling will last a helluva lot longer than the last one.
Ah. Coulda sworn he wrestled in college before he started a lot of jits training. Learn something new everyday.
FTR I think I am somewhere inbetween you guys. I think wrestling is the best discipline to have if you’re coming from a specific style standpoint, but I won’t go as far to say that it “dominates” MMA.
“When you are tired, sweaty, and not thinking correctly putting together a flawless triangle is not easy.”
anderson silva did it to sonnen just a second ago…
I chock that one up as him simply being a champion and the world’s best….
…an Sonnen having some of the worsed submission defense for a high level contender in MMA history…
Yea, that too…lol Mr. Second Best!
Shamrock came from a wrestiling background too. He didn’t make it in college but he did come from a wrestling background.
True, but I wanted to show how many great wrestlers are UFC Hall’ers…Which is why I didn’t over-exagerate Chuck.
Just saw this post on fb, seemed appropriate:
“Former wrestlers go 6-0 @ UFC 118: Mike Pierce (Portland State), Dan Miller (New Jersey HS), Nik Lentz (U. of Minn.), Gray Maynard (3X AA @ Mich. State), Randy Couture (Lynwood HS State Champion, 3X AA & 2X Nat’l Runner-up @ OK State), Frankie Edgar (2X State Placer @ Toms River East HS, 4X NCAA qualifer @ Clarion Univ.) all walk out of the Octagon winners.”
Yael,
Thanks!
Seems like a trend….
That’s why I’m jumping on the Eric Larkin and Ben Askren bandwagons.
Wrestlers are just saturating the sport I do not think it is a question of being the “perfect style.” I mean GSP may use wrestling but he has no wrestling pedigree, neither does Anderson Silva or Jose Aldo. If you put Fedor in the mix as 4 of the top P4P fighters today none are have a a wrestling background. That being said a wrestler does have the qualities you point out Curtis and one cannot forget that the higher their wrestling background the higher level of athleticism they normally have. Teach them sub defense how to ground and pound and they can step into a MMA match immediately.
Wardog,
My question with GSP is that even though he doesn’t have an NCAA pedigree, anyone that could try out for their National Olympic team is a strong wrestler.
Agreed. I just don’t buy into the whole “wrestling is best” argument. Nor do I buy into any style being superior. Wrestling does have an edge it seems in developing a good athlete for the sport.
The changes in the UFC (and other MMA organizations) rules imposing time limit to a fight also had an impact. BJJs guys used to rely on patience and contention. They could spend 30 minutes with a wrestling guy on top, just waiting for the oportunity to finnish the fight. From then to these days, if a wrestler blocks the opponent on the ground, just to avoid fighting, gets the win.
Thats why i always prefered the Pride fights and rules. The most notorious UFC exception to this was Bas Routen win against Randleman. Bas work and strikes on the ground counted that time.
I think takedowns are over-rated by the judges. If a guy gets hited with a couple of punches and kicks but manages to take down the opponent and rests on top for a minute, he gets the round… In Pride, he would get a yellow card and the fight would resume in the center, with both fighters standing up. I think the UFC rules just favour wrestlers.
“The most notorious UFC exception to this was Bas Routen win against Randleman. Bas work and strikes on the ground counted that time.”
It’s also one of the biggest robberies in MMA history IMO. Randleman manhandled Bas and beat his ass that entire fight. Bas was never close to a sub or landing anything significant, and he face was bleeding something fierce at the end.
It was about as bad as the Big Nog-Ricco decision.
“Bas was never close to a sub or landing anything significant, and he face was bleeding something fierce at the end.”
So, with that kind of argument i suppose that you think that Sonnen loose all the rounds against Anderson Silva: that statement applies like a glove to that fight.
But ok, i wont insist on that – it was just an example to illustrate my point – the rules favours wrestlers.
I can give you another example of what i mean: i hate to see fights (and fighters) like the Ortiz x Wanderlei, on UFC 25. Ortiz only concern was avoiding fighting. Grab the opponent, go to the ground and trying to hold him. With no time limit, a guy like that would eventually get hited at some point and defeated. The rules allow for that kind of stalling. Or, instead of no time limit, with different rules and approaches, like Pride.
If that fight was held at Pride, i’m sure that Tito Ortiz would have got the same destiny of the other Wanderlei “victims” like Rampage; Sakuraba; Henderson; Mezger; Ivel; Kondo… The referee would not allow that kind of “fight”.
“So, with that kind of argument i suppose that you think that Sonnen loose all the rounds against Anderson Silva: that statement applies like a glove to that fight.”
That makes absolutely no since. Chael was bleeding more, but it was clear he dominated the fight. Bas landed nothing significant in the fight. He was never close to a sub, and although he landed some good strikes from his back he was manhandled.
Bas got his ass beat in that fight, and was awarded a garbage win.
I do understand where you are coming from with the Ortiz Wanderlei argument though. You just come off as Pride fanboy a little bit. Sure they might have been stood up more in Pride, but Tito would have been able to get to side control and rain down knees.
Also if your so shore Tito would’ve gotten beat in Pride why did Wanderlei lose to Arona there?
” Chael was bleeding more, but it was clear he dominated the fight”
I agree but, despite Andersons injury, Chael was hiting like a little girl. I wouls say Chael dominated and Anderson controlled.
“Bas got his ass beat in that fight, and was awarded a garbage win”
Like Couture against Rizzo (first fight). I still think that Bas landed more strikes and they were more powerfull (the elbows from the bottom, like Anderson did with Chael but less often). Anyway, i have no problem admiting that you are right on this one.
My main point is that UFC (and many other mma organizations) rules favour wrestlers and takedowns.
“You just come off as Pride fanboy a little bit”
Yes, i liked Pride more. The cards events were much better and the average levelwas higher. And the rules. Beside allowing knees and kicks to the head of a down opponent (no north-south resting positions…), the fight scoring rules were better. It counted the entire fight and not just round by round.
” Sure they might have been stood up more in Pride”
Its not a problem of standing up but actually fight – standing up or on the ground (they even resumed the fights on the ground, back to the center of the ring). Tito just blocked the fight on the ground.
“, but Tito would have been able to get to side control and rain down knees”
And why didnt he (elbows and punches, not knees)??? He spend most part of the fight in the ground, on top of Wanderlei, right? Were were those elbows? The G&P? Tito’s only concern was to grab Wanderlei and avoid fighing – either on the ground or standing.
What i mean is if it was on Pride, he would get a yellow card for stalling.
“Also if your so shore Tito would’ve gotten beat in Pride why did Wanderlei lose to Arona there?”
After 20 or so strait devastating wins? Come on, were probably talking about the most dominating fihgter of that time. The guy that destroyed Rampage, whom have destroyed Lidell, whom have destroyed Tito (whom, by the way, was avoiding fighting Lidell for years…)! Everyone looses at some point.
Anyway, these are just remarks and small points of view. My main point, i repeat, is that UFC rules favours wrestlers and takedowns.
Yea were starting to go into different directions here from both are main points. This is one problem with debating. We both just get more entrenched into our original positions. And I hope I didn’t come off as a dick saying the pride fanboy thing. It just came off as you were being more sympathetic to the pride fighters. I should have phrased it differently.
I could probably argue against every point you just made(although they make since), but it just seems better to “agree to disagree”.
Yeah, the more examples and deviations from the main point will be too confusing to comment (and sometimes understand). So, to keep things simple i’ll state again my point: UFC rules (and MMA in general) favours wrestlers and takedowns. A simple and inofensive takedown count much more on the judges cards than a kick or punch. I just don’t get it.
Style vs Style crap went out the window years ago , to be honest I think the reason Wrestling is given such hype especially in America in general is because their arent as many paths for wrestlers after college apart from the Olympics which gives them a brief moment of fame if they are lucky/skilled enough to compete in them more than twice,they can either become wrestling coaches themselves which would mean theyd need to become fully qualified P.E. teachers which not all of them could do or go into(god forbid )pro(show)Wrestling ,MMA is their new home it was the same way with BJJ in the begining when it started out and in a few years it’ll change to some other style getting all the hype,Wrestling is important but you can’t argue its the best base to work from, that is dependant on the individual not their style, there’s no magic formula for MMA ,it depends how hard you yourself work at MMA, while wrestling is important it’s not the be all and end all and anyone buying into all the hype and thinking “Oh well I/they don’t have good wrestling so I/they might as well give up now” is full of crap and has no business trying to become a fighter ,harsh but true.However the good point of wrestling is its easy availability to young americans in school just like judo for japanese youth ,both are used as self defence,a means to gain fitness,training as part of a team,discipline,and a die hard work ethic,one can gain this from any martial art however,but none are so readily available in their respective countries as these two,I envy both America and Japan in this respect.I’m sorry I’m rambling off on a tangent