The Argument for James Toney
By Josh Stein on Mar 04, 2010
Don't let Toney's mouth distract from the fact that he'll be one of the UFC heavyweight division's best strikers.
Well, the UFC has signed James Toney (0-0 MMA, 72-6-3-2 Boxing) and the contention over whether or not he’s a legit force in MMA is going to start. The opposition to Toney has already spoken. I have to say, I was skeptical of the UFC signing him at first, but I’m going to change my tune a little bit (for a minute). Part of that is to play Devil’s Advocate (which is always fun) and part of that is because I think Toney is good for the UFC, and the UFC could do a lot worse.
Toney is a top forty boxer, and is a pretty competitive fighter, even as old as he’s getting. There’s definitely something to be said for the athletic credibility of any world class athlete who steps in to the cage. Of course, that’s not an argument that has ever convinced me, and it shouldn’t convince you. It doesn’t mean much when someone comes from another sport, especially if it’s not a combat sport. But Toney is a little different than Herschel Walker (1-0 MMA), if for no other reason than that the guy (while not in his prime) is still competing periodically and seems to be in pretty good shape. Of course, he’s not in the shape that he was when he TKO’d Evander Holyfield, but his conditioning is solid as an athlete.
What’s more, there are plenty of fighters in the UFC heavyweight division that Toney can, for lack of a better term, kick the ever-loving crap out of. When a fighter like Kimbo Slice comes into the UFC, there can be speculation that the guy is the worst fighter in the division. That can’t be said for Toney, and I think we’ll see that in his first UFC fight, both in the hype leading up to it and once he steps into the cage.
You’re going to hear the argument from profit alot. And I’m not saying there’s no validity to that argument. Certainly, Toney (like Brock Lesnar or Kimbo Slice) has the potential to be a huge draw. Toney is a warrior and a charismatic guy with an exciting style. But, personally, I care less about the money that the UFC makes, because it’s not as though I’m the one making money. I tend to be indifferent to that argument, though I recognize that some people like it, and that it matters (obviously) to the UFC brass.
The reason I like the idea of Toney fighting in the UFC heavyweight division has everything to do with the status of the middle-of-the-pack in the UFC heavyweight division right now. The majority of the guys in the middle of the heavyweight division at the moment are big punchers with decent wrestling and decent ground skills. Guys like Todd Duffee (6-0 MMA, 1-0 UFC) and Ben Rothwell (30-7 MMA, 0-1 UFC). Then there’s a subset of substantial kickboxers in that second tier of fighters: Pat Barry (5-1 MMA, 2-1 UFC), Antoni Hardonk (8-6 MMA, 4-4 UFC) and Gilbert Yvel (36-14-1-1 MMA, 0-1 UFC).
All of those guys make for exciting fights with James Toney. Toney gives those guys the opportunity to prove that they’re among the best pure strikers in the world and those guys give Toney the opportunity to prove that his boxing game translate to MMA. Oh, and the fans get to see guys with fantastic knockout power look to put another guy’s lights out. Big upside for everybody.
Now, I want to be sure that the UFC doesn’t adopt Toney as an immediate contender for the UFC belt. Even if he wins his first two fights, he has to prove that he can fight an All-American wrestler (since three of the top fighters in the division right now are phenomenal wrestlers). It’s going to take Toney a while to show that he can handles the matchups he has to in order to make for an interesting title contender, but he definitely has the potential to show that he can be a legit force in MMA.
NOTE: There has been some mention of a potential matchup between Toney and Kevin “Kimbo Slice” Ferguson. This is a huge draw for the UFC. It will end with Kimbo staring into the lights. Kimbo didn’t do well as an amateur boxer, and unless he manages to do a phenomenal job in the clinch against Toney, he’s going to eat some serious punches. This matchup would be a nice, easy debut for Toney, but it’s hard to say it would gain him any credibility.
Filed Under: MMA
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Man your gonna get killed for this article.
I dunno. I think it’s a pretty good argument. I mean, I get flack for all sorts of crap, so I wouldn’t be surprised, but this is one of my more sedate posts.
Hope you liked it, though, bro.
Yea I did man. Come over to fight opinion and help me out. Most of the guys over there are busy calling Dana a hypocrite, and saying Toney has been shot for years. Im kind of in the middle.
Alan Conciecao tried to argue with me that a 48 year old Ray Mercer was a better cross over than Toney is.
I said this in the other article. I wish they wouldn’t have signed James Toney.
The legitimate reasons you listed above are what keep me from wanting to kill them for signing him.
I also understand the “Freak Show” comments coming back at Dana for this signing but I don’t think of James Toney trying MMA as “Freak Show” considering he has been a professional fighter his whole life. Now that could change depending on how they use him though.
Matt, I pretty much agree with this. It really does depend on who they have Toney fight. Toney vs. Kimbo would be a freakshow fight, plain and simple.
Toney vs. Duffee or Yvel or Rothwell would be interesting. That’s why I’m not upset.
I also wish they hadn’t signed him. I wish he’d have gone to a less legitimate organization, to prove himself first. But they’ve done it, and it could be worse.
I agree. Toney vs. Kimbo is freakshow territory to me.
Any of the other fights you mentioned would be fine by me.
I saw where Randy tweeted that he wouldn’t mind being Toney’s first opponent. How would you feel about Couture vs. Toney?
I’m down for Randy vs. Toney. Especially the way that Randy is right now, 2 losses over tough guys followed by 2 so-so wins, it’d be interesting.
I’m not sure if the fight would be at heavyweight or lightheavyweight. Toney’s weight fluxuates pretty heavily and I don’t know if he can make 205 at his age. He hasn’t really fought below 220 since he beat Jirov in 2003 (he was a cruiserweight at the time, which I think put him at 190; I can check boxrec to check, though).
I’d be more interested to see Toney at heavyweight, honestly. The lightheavyweight division doesn’t really need him to put the young punchers through the fire. If he and Couture fight at heavyweight, though, I’d be up for that.
Couture has good boxing (though no where near as good as Toney’s), but it will definitely put Toney in a good position to prove that he can defend himself in the clinch, or at least work off of the back foot enough to be effective.
I think it depends on what Dana wants to do with him. if he wants to prove that MMA is better than boxing he will give him someone like Big Country someone with good ground skill but not a top of the division and someone who Toney will talk a lot of crap about (the Budda belly thing) but will get crucified and pounded into submission just like everyone else at the TUF 10 caliber. if he wants to make money off of Toney’s smack talk he will feed him Kimbo
Model writing. I’ve anticipated this kind of signing for some time and Toney will simply be the best boxer to ever fight in the Octagon. Period. For boxing fans and for fans of MMA who respect boxing, that has to mean something.
My view here: http://kaseydriscoll.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/james-toney-and-ricardo-mayorgo-boxing-and-mma-square-off/
It was a good write-up, but he doesn’t belong in MMA just because he can stalk Dana White during a UFC event.
The guy has brain damage from nearly 100 boxing fights where he got hit in the head thousands of times. Keith Kizer in NV will let him fight, but could he fight in a strict state like NJ? I doubt it.
You’re right, he doesn’t belong in MMA just because he can stalk Dana White during a UFC event. He belongs in MMA because he’s one of the best boxers in the world, which means he has the potential to be competitive against the best strikers the UFC has to offer, and that’s a great place to start.
As far as Nevada sanctioning him, as opposed to New Jersey, Jersey sanctioned his fight with Rahman in 2006. He’s only six fights removed from that bout and, it’s worth noting, his only two losses since then were decisions against Samuel Peter, who’s on the edge of the top ten. I don’t think the UFC would have much of a problem getting him sanctioned in Jersey, but he’ll fight in Nevada, because that’s where the UFC has it’s biggest events, and he’s going to end up on the main card of one of those fights.
That’s where we disagree.
He hasn’t fought anyone competitive in years, he has brain damage, and he’s way out of shape for MMA.
Jersey won’t sanction him now after he admitted to brain damage in 2007. Nevada has OK’d fights before that should not have happened.
http://www.fightopinion.com/2010/03/03/the-legacy-of-keith-kizer-is-cemented-thanks-to-evander-holyfield/
His first fight could be this summer. I hope they put up against Stefan Struve, haha.
http://www.fightopinion.com/2010/03/05/james-toney-my-first-mma-fight-will-happen-in-june-or-july/
There’s a comment on this article that’s been added to the article itself.
http://www.fightopinion.com/2010/03/04/the-motivations-behind-ufcs-move-to-sign-james-toney/
“Toney is no longer a top 50 heavyweight, has brain damage, doesn’t train, has pointed guns at his managers, torn up gyms, assaulted numerous people, and abuses steroids. In short, this is a freak show, every bit the freak show Mercer/Sylvia was. At least in that case, Mercer was a legitimate heavyweight.”
They can say Toney’s not top fifty if they want, but he’s still ranked that way. He’s ranked in the mid-30s by many, and while I’m not sure I agree, it’s clear the dude can still box.
Hasim Rahman isn’t competitive? Samuel Peter isn’t competitive?
It’s fine to say he hasn’t fought well in a long time. He’s definitely not in his prime, which is why I think he’ll get wrecked in MMA, but he’s a solid boxer.
Oh, and I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed that they put him in the cage with Gilbert Yvel or Antoni Hardonk. Bring in the Dutch strikers!
I have to say like the article but hate the signing. You know forget putting him in with Kimbo, some lesser known fighter, or even Couture. Throw him right at either Lesnar or Machida (if he wants to drop down to lhw which someone stated somewhere). I do not want him to win one fight, not one!
This is a win-win situation for the boxing crowd over the MMA crowd. If Toney beats any fighter with a MMA background he makes boxers look great (especially if the guy is younger than him). A win over a Couture would be fantastic for the likes of Mayweather and other MMA detractors. If he looses they will say he’s old and washed up so it doesn’t matter. Either way the only way MMA looks good in this situation is if he ends up getting smashed, so bring on Lesnar!
Bill
Bro, I’m more optimistic. Sooner or later he’ll fight Todd Duffee or some other athletic young guy with a wrestling background who will just get him against the cage or take him down and just wreck him.
Even if it doesn’t happen right away, there are so many good, athletic fighters out there that Toney really won’t be able to compete. If he wins one with a big punch then goes 0-2 or 0-3 because he’s gotta fight tougher guys, then the boxers will shut up.
We’ll see, though.
Do I think Toney will be a force in the UFC? No! Sure a guy like Duffee or someone else would probably take him down and pound him out. But all the UFC needs is a KO of someone with a name like dumbass Couture who is calling Toney out to think he can stand and bang with him. And you know someone will when they shouldn’t and get KO’d.
Already the boxers at my gym are saying exactly what I said earlier. They are saying Toney is crazy and old and shouldn’t be doing this. They said the same thing about Ray Mercer… until he ko’d Sylvia. Then it was these MMA guys can’t fight a boxer (yes event though he lost to Kimbo). So just throw Lesnar at him and let it be done!
Bill