Comments on: The ‘experts’ discuss Machida vs. Rua

By: wardog

wardog — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:44:32 +0000

Well we don’t have it sanctioned in NY and I can only IMAGINE what would have happened in this state if the fight had been here. But I know a guy who was a pro boxer who watched the fight and told me he thought Machida won. Like I said they looked at those leg kicks like a jab that was setting something up not as a devastating strike that could win a fight.
Bill

By: BWoods

BWoods — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:43:52 +0000

So, by Cecil Peoples description of his judging criteria (controlling distance and keeping the fight where you want it) he would have had Kalib Starnes as the winner vs Nate Quarry? Kalib controlled where the fight went and didn’t get hit. Obviously he won right? Since aggression supposedly doesn’t matter if its not effective.

I guess he would have also given Chuck Liddell the win over Keith Jardine too. Since Chuck took the legkicks and never once changed his stance, they didn’t end the fight while he was going for a knockout.

Peoples is an idiot, plain and simple. He’s been known as the single worse referee/judge in all of MMA for years now. He’s a kickboxing referee who has no concept of grappling or ground fighting. There were only three people in the entire Staples Center who truely believed that Lyoto won that fight, and they were the only three who’s opinions mattered. Lyoto’s own body language suggested that he believed he had lost. The look on his face when his name was announced was of pure shock.

Sorta like a “I won? Holy shit! I won!”

By: Brandt DeLorenzo

Brandt DeLorenzo — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:02:54 +0000

Agreed. We have the same problem in PA where MMA was finally sanctioned earlier this year. I’m on friendly terms with a judge and he admits that some other judges have no idea how to score MMA. I wouldn’t doubt that this happens in many states, even California and Nevada since boxing has been around for so long and many judges have been in their roles for a long period of time.

By: wardog

wardog — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:48:14 +0000

I posted something previously about this decision so I will be brief here. First, I felt Rua won the fight, he controlled the pace a little more than Machida and those leg kicks were harsh. However, to some of these judges it obviously appeared that they were the equivalent of a jab, meaning a strike used to set up other attacks. For the most part Rua’s whole attack was the leg kick, which although it slowed Machida down it did not finish him. Machida was able to land some clean shots on Rua and appeared more aggressive at times. Also he attacked more to “finish” or at least the judges thought so. Had Rua done more in an effort to finish the fight a few take down attempts or other strikes aside from the leg kicks, then the judges may have viewed it differently. But again they need to get judges who train in MMA or are MMA exclusive, not boxing ones.

By: Josh Stein

Josh Stein — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:33:32 +0000

Cliff, crack is whack, man. I’m all for being respectful and embracing the budo spirit, but at some point it’s just a crappy decision, whether it was two judges for a split decision or three judges for a unanimous one.

People’s criticism is idiotic, Cliff, because the guy doesn’t seem to have any grasp on he concept of using the leg kicks. He doesn’t have any concept of the difference between “effective striking” (which does damage) and “efficient striking” (which has economy).

He totally ignored aggression, which is a category Shogun clearly won.

Anyway, we’ll get to see a rematch, and that’s all I care about at this point.

By: Brandt DeLorenzo

Brandt DeLorenzo — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:44:39 +0000

Yeah and I just broke down People’s reasoning into complete idiocy.

Machida did not ‘clearly’ win to those who were able to see the fight clearly.

By: Cliff Cowles

Cliff Cowles — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:55:47 +0000

Lyoto Machida clearly won that fight.
What is completely astonishing is that Joe Rogan’s commentary, which I used to enjoy, was the key bias that swayed the crowd away from the judges decision. Rogan is a commentator of what happens, NOT the judge of who won. Rogan overstepped his bounds, and did a huge disservice to Lyoto’s camp and all the fans listening.
For those on the internet, Joe Rogan on TV, and so many others that said “EVERYONE” thought Rua won, all of us who are reasonable men, quiet in our convictions, and not bully-ego-boys who believe that our opinions are more important than those judging these very technical fights, we reasonable men are in the majority and we respect the sport and the moment to accept the judges UNANIMOUS decision: Lyoto was clearly the winner of that fight.
Real martial artists bow upon entering and leaving the octagon, bowing to those deciding, affording respect where respect is due.
It would be nice that all the Rua won! fans, would enter the discussion respectfully and know that the next bout neither fighter will leave any doubt as to who won.
My congratulations to Rua, who fought a great fight. Plus Rua’s handling of the matter deserves a bow of respect. However, it was his own corner that gave him false confidence that he was winning, that caused Rua’s own demise. I heard them doing it during the fight and knew that was the wrong message for Rua, at that point, as it might and probably would lead him to a sure defeat.
For all the unheard masses who believe what they saw and respect the judges’ UNANIMOUS decision, I speak for you here that even though we are not disrespectfully vocal, we know in our hearts that Lyoto Machida won the fight, and he and his family are a very pleasant surprise for their composure during this trial.
In thanks for taking this lesson, Lyoto and family, and completing the task of beating Rua, in the very near future.
This followed by Dana White’s judgement of who won the fight, totally undermining both Lyoto’s camp and the judges’ clearly accurate decision.
Then we have Fightmetrics exposed for it’s own inaccurate system as most of us saw so many strikes that biased Fightmetrics did not see, for some odd reason.
I think Judge Cecil People said it best in his analysis:
The main-event of UFC 104 saw Lyoto Machida defend his Light heavyweight title by winning a unanimous decision over Shogun Rua but not without controversy as many spectators felt the scorecards reflected poorly upon the fight. Long time MMA judge and referee, Cecil Peoples provided us with his reasoning behind his issued score of 48-47 in favour of the champion, Lyoto Machida.
“First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss. Mauricio Rua was being aggressive but it wasn’t effective aggressiveness which is what we as the judges look for when scoring a fight. The way I saw it, Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight – if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyoto’s diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida. You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that.”
“When both fighters are engaged in a striking match what I always look for is the fighter who is being judicious, picking his spots, being accurate and landing the cleaner strikes which ultimately is what Lyoto did more effectively than Rua. Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control. I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly. I’m just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way and I’m sure the fans who understand the technicalities of the sport agree with the decision too.”

By: Josh Stein

Josh Stein — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:06:50 +0000

Generally, I’m the guy defending the judges, but that decision was simply not defensible. And Cecil Peoples’ defense is idiotic.

Leg kicks don’t finish fights?

Tell that to Antoni Hardonk. Tell that to the legion of K-1 fighters who have been turned into sitting ducks because their legs were completely destroyed. I spent my entire night tonight drilling my right outside leg kick, so to hear someone talk that way about a move that is so brutal is really irritating.

By: Phil Ross

Phil Ross — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:14:46 +0000

If you contend that Machida landed the “cleaner” blows, so what? He hardly landed any – and nothing that damaged Rua at all. I wasn’t drunk or “hi fiving” anyone – I was watching intently as well as employing my eye that has been involved in combat arts for over 35 years to ascertain that Rua got a raw deal.
Please note that I am a Machida fan and supporter, however he lost. If you have ever competed with leg kicks, then you know how devastating repeated cut kicks are. The legs are a target and there were many clean blows landed by Rua to Machida’s legs.
I just don’t want to see the UFC get ruined like boxing has. Decisions like these are what turn people off to a sport.