The ‘experts’ discuss Machida vs. Rua
By Brandt DeLorenzo on Oct 26, 2009
UFC 104 gave us one of the most exciting back and forth main events that we have seen in a long time. It also gave many fans a reason to jump online to discuss why they believe Mauricio ‘Shogun’ Rua was robbed by the judges after his fight with light heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida. But now the ‘experts’ are coming back with their reasoning on why Machida ‘clearly’ won the fight.
Kevin Iole offers his opinion on the controversial decision to allow Lyoto Machida to retain his light heavyweight championship belt after a tough fight against Muaricio ‘Shogun’ Rua at UFC 104. Instead of properly discussing the impact of using boxing judges, with a poor view of the cage, in MMA, he tries to blame Rua and his corner for the loss.
The men who should be facing the wrath of those who felt Rua had won should not be [Nelson] Hamilton, [Cecil] Peoples and [Marcos] Rosales, who rendered their opinions in a very technical, taut affair. Rather, Rua supporters should be angry at his corner men, who continually told him he was well ahead.
Rua said he didn’t press the action in the final two rounds because his corner had told him he was in control. If that’s true, it’s that advice that cost him the fight. And it’s always the worst kind of advice to give a fighter in any match, but particularly a technical fight like Machida-Rua.
This is odd considering one of the three CSAC judges, Yahoo! Sports, numerous other MMA bloggers, and other fighters who were just a few feet behind the judges felt that he won at least one of the later rounds. And here’s the gem of his diatribe against the fans, Rua, and everyone except for the three men who scored the fight.
And while many disagree with the judges, their decision is at least defensible. White blasted them for their scoring, but he and many of the angry fans didn’t take time to consider that the judges weren’t drinking beer and eating popcorn and slapping five with their friends or doing any of the things that fans do as they watch a bout. Their concentration was on the cage and the action inside it for all five minutes of every round.
Sure. The judges have the best view in the house. They’re sitting two feet away from an elevated black fence. Have you ever sat cageside? I have, and it’s difficult to see anything that isn’t directly in front of you. The crowd, on the other hand, has an obstructed view from above thanks to the elevation and jumbotron. But we were all drinking beer and eating popcorn when we re-watched the fight over and over, obviously.
Cecil Peoples, unarguable the worst MMA judge in the history of the sport, has also offered his opinion on why he scored the fight for Machida.
“First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss. Mauricio Rua was being aggressive but it wasn’t effective aggressiveness which is what we as the judges look for when scoring a fight. The way I saw it, Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight – if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyotos diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida. You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that.”
Maybe Cecil Peoples is the only fighter who never saw the impact of leg kicks. This isn’t karate, Cecil, leg kicks are a huge factor in fights. How can you throw effective combos when you can’t put pressure on your forward leg?
“When both fighters are engaged in a striking match what I always look for is the fighter who is being judicious, picking his spots, being accurate and landing the cleaner strikes which ultimately is what Lyoto did more effectively than Rua. Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control. I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly. I’m just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way and I’m sure the fans who understand the technicalities of the sport agree with the decision too.”
So making someone else the aggressor is a good thing now? Peoples contradicts himself by saying that he favors the fighter who is trying to finish the fight (and don’t forget the takedown attempts here), but he always favors the fighter who is not being aggressive and makes the other come after him. This is just stupid reasoning no matter who wins any fight.
Luckily, Dana White immediately noticed that Rua could’ve won the fight and proposed an immediate rematch between the fighters. Too bad Rua can’t come in with the same game plan against the same fighter in a short timespan. Hopefully there can be a decisive ending to fight #2, and even if there is, there will still be controversy over who really won the first fight at UFC 104.
And no matter what happens, please get rid of Cecil Peoples. The referee crew during the terrible Arkansas-Florida college football game was suspended for basically giving Florida a win, so it’s time to suspend MMA judges who can’t logically defend why they scored a fight the way they did.
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If you contend that Machida landed the “cleaner” blows, so what? He hardly landed any – and nothing that damaged Rua at all. I wasn’t drunk or “hi fiving” anyone – I was watching intently as well as employing my eye that has been involved in combat arts for over 35 years to ascertain that Rua got a raw deal.
Please note that I am a Machida fan and supporter, however he lost. If you have ever competed with leg kicks, then you know how devastating repeated cut kicks are. The legs are a target and there were many clean blows landed by Rua to Machida’s legs.
I just don’t want to see the UFC get ruined like boxing has. Decisions like these are what turn people off to a sport.
Generally, I’m the guy defending the judges, but that decision was simply not defensible. And Cecil Peoples’ defense is idiotic.
Leg kicks don’t finish fights?
Tell that to Antoni Hardonk. Tell that to the legion of K-1 fighters who have been turned into sitting ducks because their legs were completely destroyed. I spent my entire night tonight drilling my right outside leg kick, so to hear someone talk that way about a move that is so brutal is really irritating.
Lyoto Machida clearly won that fight.
What is completely astonishing is that Joe Rogan’s commentary, which I used to enjoy, was the key bias that swayed the crowd away from the judges decision. Rogan is a commentator of what happens, NOT the judge of who won. Rogan overstepped his bounds, and did a huge disservice to Lyoto’s camp and all the fans listening.
For those on the internet, Joe Rogan on TV, and so many others that said “EVERYONE” thought Rua won, all of us who are reasonable men, quiet in our convictions, and not bully-ego-boys who believe that our opinions are more important than those judging these very technical fights, we reasonable men are in the majority and we respect the sport and the moment to accept the judges UNANIMOUS decision: Lyoto was clearly the winner of that fight.
Real martial artists bow upon entering and leaving the octagon, bowing to those deciding, affording respect where respect is due.
It would be nice that all the Rua won! fans, would enter the discussion respectfully and know that the next bout neither fighter will leave any doubt as to who won.
My congratulations to Rua, who fought a great fight. Plus Rua’s handling of the matter deserves a bow of respect. However, it was his own corner that gave him false confidence that he was winning, that caused Rua’s own demise. I heard them doing it during the fight and knew that was the wrong message for Rua, at that point, as it might and probably would lead him to a sure defeat.
For all the unheard masses who believe what they saw and respect the judges’ UNANIMOUS decision, I speak for you here that even though we are not disrespectfully vocal, we know in our hearts that Lyoto Machida won the fight, and he and his family are a very pleasant surprise for their composure during this trial.
In thanks for taking this lesson, Lyoto and family, and completing the task of beating Rua, in the very near future.
This followed by Dana White’s judgement of who won the fight, totally undermining both Lyoto’s camp and the judges’ clearly accurate decision.
Then we have Fightmetrics exposed for it’s own inaccurate system as most of us saw so many strikes that biased Fightmetrics did not see, for some odd reason.
I think Judge Cecil People said it best in his analysis:
The main-event of UFC 104 saw Lyoto Machida defend his Light heavyweight title by winning a unanimous decision over Shogun Rua but not without controversy as many spectators felt the scorecards reflected poorly upon the fight. Long time MMA judge and referee, Cecil Peoples provided us with his reasoning behind his issued score of 48-47 in favour of the champion, Lyoto Machida.
“First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss. Mauricio Rua was being aggressive but it wasn’t effective aggressiveness which is what we as the judges look for when scoring a fight. The way I saw it, Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight – if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyoto’s diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida. You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that.”
“When both fighters are engaged in a striking match what I always look for is the fighter who is being judicious, picking his spots, being accurate and landing the cleaner strikes which ultimately is what Lyoto did more effectively than Rua. Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control. I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly. I’m just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way and I’m sure the fans who understand the technicalities of the sport agree with the decision too.”
Yeah and I just broke down People’s reasoning into complete idiocy.
Machida did not ‘clearly’ win to those who were able to see the fight clearly.
Cliff, crack is whack, man. I’m all for being respectful and embracing the budo spirit, but at some point it’s just a crappy decision, whether it was two judges for a split decision or three judges for a unanimous one.
People’s criticism is idiotic, Cliff, because the guy doesn’t seem to have any grasp on he concept of using the leg kicks. He doesn’t have any concept of the difference between “effective striking” (which does damage) and “efficient striking” (which has economy).
He totally ignored aggression, which is a category Shogun clearly won.
Anyway, we’ll get to see a rematch, and that’s all I care about at this point.
I posted something previously about this decision so I will be brief here. First, I felt Rua won the fight, he controlled the pace a little more than Machida and those leg kicks were harsh. However, to some of these judges it obviously appeared that they were the equivalent of a jab, meaning a strike used to set up other attacks. For the most part Rua’s whole attack was the leg kick, which although it slowed Machida down it did not finish him. Machida was able to land some clean shots on Rua and appeared more aggressive at times. Also he attacked more to “finish” or at least the judges thought so. Had Rua done more in an effort to finish the fight a few take down attempts or other strikes aside from the leg kicks, then the judges may have viewed it differently. But again they need to get judges who train in MMA or are MMA exclusive, not boxing ones.
Agreed. We have the same problem in PA where MMA was finally sanctioned earlier this year. I’m on friendly terms with a judge and he admits that some other judges have no idea how to score MMA. I wouldn’t doubt that this happens in many states, even California and Nevada since boxing has been around for so long and many judges have been in their roles for a long period of time.
Well we don’t have it sanctioned in NY and I can only IMAGINE what would have happened in this state if the fight had been here. But I know a guy who was a pro boxer who watched the fight and told me he thought Machida won. Like I said they looked at those leg kicks like a jab that was setting something up not as a devastating strike that could win a fight.
Bill
So, by Cecil Peoples description of his judging criteria (controlling distance and keeping the fight where you want it) he would have had Kalib Starnes as the winner vs Nate Quarry? Kalib controlled where the fight went and didn’t get hit. Obviously he won right? Since aggression supposedly doesn’t matter if its not effective.
I guess he would have also given Chuck Liddell the win over Keith Jardine too. Since Chuck took the legkicks and never once changed his stance, they didn’t end the fight while he was going for a knockout.
Peoples is an idiot, plain and simple. He’s been known as the single worse referee/judge in all of MMA for years now. He’s a kickboxing referee who has no concept of grappling or ground fighting. There were only three people in the entire Staples Center who truely believed that Lyoto won that fight, and they were the only three who’s opinions mattered. Lyoto’s own body language suggested that he believed he had lost. The look on his face when his name was announced was of pure shock.
Sorta like a “I won? Holy shit! I won!”