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Zuffa, Tyranny and Managers: An Imaginary Clusterf*ck

By Josh Stein on Apr 01, 2009

This is Monte. He has job security.

This is Monte. He has job security.

For those who haven’t seen Loretta Hunt’s latest piece on the UFC’s removal of managers from backstage, it’s an interesting piece of journalism, but perhaps what’s most interesting is that her two named sources, Monte Cox and Ken Pavia, seem totally indifferent to the issue of banning managers backstage.

Of course, there are some managers who are very upset about no longer being allowed backstage. Two “parties” (and I use the term because we have no idea who they are), seem very frustrated that they were not issued permits for the last UFC and UFN events.

What seems to be the meat of Hunt’s article, is overlooked in a scatterbrained attempt to illustrate the problem. Normally, I would just link to her piece, but I think that it’s worth reading something a little more concise, because, whether you (the fans, generally), know it or not, the loss of managers backstage can have an impact on you. Plus, it gives a lot of insight into the way that Zuffa runs their promotion.

So, let’s look at what the problem actually is. It boils down to two things: the way that Zuffa tries to manipulate fighter finances and the role of managers backstage.

Zuffa as the Evil Empire

Admittedly, this sounds like a conspiracy theory, so I’ll try and stay in the concrete, and keep from sounding like I’ve got my hair up in a tin-foil hat.

Zuffa has worked hard to keep the focus of their promoting on their own promotions. They are careful not to reference other fighters positively, as much as is humanly possible, and they shudder at the prospect of having other organizations clinging to their coattails. The UFC, especially (though this is true for the WEC too), is careful to keep other promotions from having their names slipped in, and this has a lot to do with managers.

All of the UFC fighters who were sponsored by Affliction (and this made up a huge percentage for a long time) were seriously restricted in their ability to advertise for Affliction as soon as the t-shirt company added that strange appendage that holds fights for Fedor Emelianenko. As soon as the interests of the fighters, a way that they make money (by selling space on their chest and back as they make their way into the cage), became an advertising venue for the UFC’s competition, they ended the practice.

Monte Cox points this out in Hunt’s article, but the point is largely overlooked. Having a manager backstage is one thing, but preventing a manager from negotiating with certain companies by forcing options from the table is something that bothers a lot of the people in management. They maintain that it shouldn’t be the promotions job to make decisions that impact a fighter’s sponsorship, and perhaps their’s some truth to that. It’s certainly a restriction on their ability.

Managing from the Locker Room

It would be absurd and shortsighted of me to say that a manager serves no purpose backstage. Certainly, it’s good for a manager to be there to make sure a fighter is getting paid properly, but that’s hardly a key roll. If the UFC is, honestly, looking to reduce backstage traffic (which is a serious problem at a lot of MMA shows, not just the UFC events), then the managers are an easy group to remove.

What unique function does a manager provide backstage? There are rarely negotiations that take place backstage (“rarely” being a way of saying none without ruling out the possibility of something absolutely bizarre happening). Moral support is generally best offered by the coaching staff, or at least the fighter’s mother. These are basic functions anyone can serve.

Plenty of managers are happy to watch from the stands, because the battles a manager fights are behind the scenes, but they’re not during the event. The roll of a manager is to get his fighter in the ring and make sure that the paycheck he gets after the event will sustain him until the next time he steps in, and to make sure that companies plaster their logo wherever they’re willing to pay to put it.

Some managers are also coaches and cornermen, but those guys will stay around, and continue to be credentialled, in their capacity as coaches and cornermen. The purpose of the UFC’s mandate, however manipulative, only prevents the managers from doing something trivial.

So I return to Monte Cox’s point:

I’m more concerned about who we can or can’t have as sponsors now, something that takes money directly from the fighters.

Me too.

Frankly, the notion that the UFC is playing a roll in fighter sponsorships is really bothersome. Unless the fighters are getting paid what pro-boxers are, then I have a hard time seeing an argument for sponsorial exclusivity. The UFC’s decision does border on tyrannical, a term I only use because I think it’s a really stupid thing to do to fighters, as it takes a lot of money out of their pockets.

Of course this is a miss. Of course the feelings of anonymous sources are going to be hurt. That said, it’s not the end of the managing profession. Fighters, for the most part, are intelligent enough to know that the promoters will screw them if they get the chance.

Everyone has learned from the parable of Mike Tyson and the King with 500 volt hair. Those informed fighters understand the purpose of management and aren’t going to let their agents stray from the negotiating table just because the guy can’t watch them get their hands wrapped. It doesn’t work like that. In a lot of respects, the UFC is the Evil Empire, but this is not one of them.

Filed Under: MMA

Tags: Dana White • Ken Pavia • Monte Cox • UFC

About the Author: Joshua Stein is a writer and editor for MMA Opinion. He has worked as a photographer and journalist and has a number of print journalism credits. He also works as a moderator for MMAForum.com and a grappling columnist (covering judo, collegiate wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and submission grappling) for profighting-fans.com.

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  1. garrett says:
    April 1, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    better than lorreta’s honestly….

  2. EJ says:
    April 1, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Frankly, the notion that the UFC is playing a roll in fighter sponsorships is really bothersome. Unless the fighters are getting paid what pro-boxers are, then I have a hard time seeing an argument for sponsorial exclusivity. The UFC’s decision does border on tyrannical, a term I only use because I think it’s a really stupid thing to do to fighters, as it takes a lot of money out of their pockets.

    The reason most of these guys are even getting sponsorships is because they are in the UFC, they already play a role in this relationship and will continue to do so. No one is taking money out of anyone’s pocket unless it’s Zuffa’s which has more than taken care of any fighter who’s lost a sponsorship in the past.

  3. ironman says:
    April 1, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    EJ, it’s not a matter of guys getting advertisers or not getting advertisers. It’s a matter of restrictions being places on who they can and can’t use. Affliction was a great sponsor for a lot of these guys, so it hurts their wallet when they can’t deal with Affliction and have to go elsewhere.

    UFC fighters aren’t in danger of losing sponsorships, but it is messed up that they can’t make their own deals with their own sponsors without worrying about whether the UFC is going to issue a veto on the t-shirts they want to wear in.

  4. 8thdegreeblack says:
    April 1, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    I agree that Zuffa is becoming borderline tyrannical with some of it’s practices, especially in sponsorships and merchandising. But it’s only fair to mention that the UFC did not ban Affliction until they became a direct competitor. Other promotions, such and EliteXC, also banned Affliction for the same reason.

    This is hardly an isolated incident when it comes to Fortune 500 sponsorships. When Sprint became the main sponsor of Nascar, they banned AT&T from sponsoring car.

    In a poor economy, the MMA industry continues to explode. So companies are out there trying to make the best business deals they can. Let’s say Tapout signs an exclusive deal with the UFC to be the only shirt allowed in the Octagon. It certainly would have a huge effect on fighters sponsorship opportunities, but if the deal is lucrative for Tapout and the UFC, can you really blame them?

    I’m sure Derek Jeter would love to get paid a bunch of money to wear some other company’s shirt during batting practice. But he can’t, because Majestic owns the exclusive rights to that. So is there something wrong with MLB or Majestic for taking that opportunity away from him?

  5. ironman says:
    April 2, 2009 at 1:06 am

    Yeah, Tim, I see what you’re saying.

    I’ve actually been having this kind of conversation a lot around the message boards, after posting this article, and that seems to be the general opinion.

    The problem is, the UFC doesn’t have a contractual clause that gives them the right to choose the shirt on the athlete’s backs. It becomes a legal issue of “is it within the power of the UFC to take an endorsement from Tapout or some other company when they don’t have the support from the text in the fighters contracts?”

    I get that it’s lucrative for the UFC, if they ever choose to ink such a deal, and I understand that the UFC couldn’t let Affliction advertise when they became another fighting organization. Still, as legal issues go, it’s a different deal than what Jeter has with the Yankees.

    The Yankees have a uniform. The UFC does not and, I hope, never will. Still, the point is valid, I just don’t see that, from a contractual standpoint, the UFC is in a position to make those decisions pertaining to a fighter.

  6. Matt C. says:
    April 2, 2009 at 10:56 am

    I have heard and read people say this all the time and have never understood it.

    “Unless the fighters are getting paid what pro-boxers are, then I have a hard time seeing an argument for sponsorial exclusivity.”

    What exactly do you mean by getting paid like pro-boxers do?

    I always hear that but never see any facts to show that pro-boxers get paid more than MMA fighters. I mean sure 5 to 10 pro-boxers may get paid millions but what are the other guys making.

    I’m not sure insinuating MMA fighters are paid less than pro-boxers is a fair statement. What is the average salary for an MMA fighter compared to the average salary for a pro-boxer?

    If you take the card Roy Jones Jr. just put on the MMA fighters appeared to have gotten paid more than the pro-boxers did. So doesn’t that call into question the statement that MMA fighters are somehow paid less than pro-boxers on average.

    I simply don’t know whether the statement is true or not. I just never see the evidence to support the claim anytime I read it.

    So hopefully this will encourage someone with the resources to figure out the average salary for both and then we can compare them to see. I know that would be hard but just some kind of statistics to start a discussion on it would be nice.

    But without proof either way this has been my opinion so far. I think in boxing you got 5-10 main event guys making mega money occasionally but what do the rest of the fighters on those cards make. Me personally from the limited statistics I have seen suggests that undercard fighters in MMA are paid better than undercard fighters in boxing. I think having a more balanced pay scale by keeping the top-end salaries down and spreading that money around to the undercard fighters would be much healthier for the sport. That is what I think I’m seeing in MMA but I have no proof of that either.

  7. ironman says:
    April 2, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Matt, it’s a fair point.

    Let’s go back and look at two headlining events opposed to each other (UFC 91 vs. Pacquaio/De La Hoya). The total card payout for UFC 91 came to, roughly $1.2 million. De La Hoya and Pacquiao took home $20 and $11 million, respectively.

    Now, for $20 million, I don’t mind if the UFC makes the guy wear an add for Uncle Ben’s rice, but even the guys at the top aren’t getting paid like that.

    Still, the UFC undercard payroll is around $5,000, and I would bet good money that pro-boxers (because, remember, even at the lower levels, a lot of these guys are still professionals in that they do nothing else, which is not always true for MMA fighters) are making more than $5,000 a bout. Still, I’m looking for some numbers to back that up.

    As for the Roy Jones Jr. card, the payouts are not that impressive for anybody. We don’t know what Roy took down (as he got paid as a promoter, not a fighter, in net profits). Omar Sheik, his opponent, was the highest paid fighter on the card ($50,000), but Bobby Lashley also made $50,000 with the win bonus. Jeff Monson made $35,000 ($25,000 + win bonus). Actually, there’s not much of a discrepancy on that card, but it clearly wasn’t a budget breaker, either.

  8. Matt C. says:
    April 2, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    But guys like De La Hoya and Pacquiao are the few exceptions in boxing that make big money. I see boxing as a heavily weighted system where maybe the top 20 guys make huge money. If only that many fighters are making the big money I don’t think it’s a fair statement.

    To me when somebody is saying MMA Fighters should be getting paid like boxers they are in essence saying they should be getting paid like Oscar or Manny.

    How are those big paydays for just a few guys helping the sport of boxing?

    Also I believe the UFC undercard payroll is a lot higher than $5000. Wasn’t Brandon Vera just on an undercard? Didn’t he make like 60k as an undercard fighter?

    I don’t think comparing 1 boxing event to 1 MMA event is an accurate comparison either. It should be a wider range of study.

    Also back to topic. If Monte Cox has such a problem with being limited by the UFC on sponsors then why didn’t he bring up Affliction? Doesn’t Affliction require every fighter to wear Affliction gear? In Affliction he only has one choice at least in the UFC he has some options. So where is his outrage for Affliction on this issue?

  9. ironman says:
    April 2, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Matt, most of the undercard guys on UFC cards make between $15,000 (with bonuses) and $5,000 (usually without them). I look at the payrolls every time they come out. Vera was on an undercard, but he was making a main event salary (because of a well negotiated contract), and got a knockout bonus.

    I’m not saying that what boxing is doing is right, but if making it in MMA had the same income potential that making it in boxing did, it would certainly be a different sport. That’s not to say it won’t in a few years. That money just doesn’t exist in MMA right now. Not every athlete is going to make huge money, but, like I said, I’d still put money on boxing undercards making significantly more than MMA undercards, simply because that money exists. I’m still looking for numbers for boxing purses.

    Affliction does not require every fighter to wear Affliction gear. They sponsor most of their fighters, but Paul Buentello did not wear an Affliction shirt into the ring.

  10. Matt C. says:
    April 2, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    O.k. thanks for clearing up the Affliction question for me. So Affliction doesn’t prohibit any sponsors from appearing on one of their events?

    However the fact remains Brandon Vera was still an undercard fighter you can’t just dismiss that. Also doesn’t the fact he has a well negotiated contract as an undercard fighter then further help my point.

    By the way Vera won by leg kicks he didn’t win by KO. So he didn’t win the KO Bonus. Matt Hamill won the KO bonus for that event.

  11. ironman says:
    April 2, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Not clothing sponsors. If it was a rival MMA promotion, I don’t know if they’d feel differently, but since there really aren’t very many clothing organizations that also run promotions, the chances are not very high.

    No, I don’t intend to. Vera has a very well negotiated contract. He did get a sizable win bonus. His flat rate was $30,000 (significantly less than what he was making before, those still impressive), and topped a $30,000 win bonus.

    That said, Vera was the second highest paid fighter on that card, tied with Gabe Gonzaga (in first was Rampage, who made $325,000).

    Also on that main card (and these are some of the top guys) were Jardine ($55,000), Shane Carwin ($32,000, and that’s with the bonus) and Matt Hamill ($40,000, also with the win bonus). Again, nothing compared to a boxing main card.

    Kendall Grove made $44,000, with his win bonus, but every other fighter was in that $5-$10K range I was talking about. Tim Boetsch’s flat was $12K, but given how long the guy’s been around, you’d think it might be a little higher (at least, I expected it).

    I appreciate this, though, Matt. It’s good for me to look at the numbers a little harder than I usually do.

    Just a fun fact, the lowest paid guy on the card was Ryan Madigan, who made $3K. So much for making the big time, I guess.

  12. Matt C. says:
    April 2, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    Thanks. My intentions are just to further the discussion and never to make it personal even if we disagree. If I ever make it personal please just slap me down.

    I am getting the feeling your only looking for facts to back up your side and not necessarily looking for information that contradicts your assessment. I mean most the numbers you are giving me are what MMA Fighters are making and then saying how low they are. However I’m not seeing any boxers salaries directly compared to those to back up that they are indeed low in comparison.

    I mean your fun fact is just throwing out the lowest paid guy on UFC 96 and taking a cheap shot at that figure but no comparison to what the lowest paid boxer on a card gets paid. I mean that might have meant something if you had compared that to how much the lowest paid boxer made on a major boxing fight card but you didn’t.

    I have tried to search the net for boxing payrolls just like the ones the Athletic Commission releases for MMA events but I can’t seem to find any. I’ve checked boxing sites and everything and they don’t seem to report on the complete payroll for events. So I am at a loss on where to find reliable statistics for this debate. That is why I brought it up here I was hoping you had the resources to find that information easily. My point being is I wish I could find that information so I could feel like I was contributing to the discussion rather than just disagreeing.

  13. ironman says:
    April 2, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    It’s all good, Matt. You’re a good commenter, and you make me work harder at my job, so no worries.

    I don’t see any factual evidence that UFC fighters are making the same amount as guys in boxing circles. I’m having a difficult time locating listings for purses of large scale boxing events, outside of the guys who are making ridiculous sums.

    The lowest paid boxer on the March Badness card made $300 more than the lowest paid MMA fighter, but I don’t think that Roy Jones Jr.’s promotion is an accurate assessment of the payouts (since MMA fighters and boxers alike are making a lot less).

    I’m having the same problem you are in locating the payrolls for boxing events. If you find ‘em, post the numbers. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, and I’m curious to have an answer.

  14. Matt C. says:
    April 3, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    If I sent an e-mail to the Athletic Commission would they provide that information?

    But see again right here you do it again:

    “I don’t see any factual evidence that UFC fighters are making the same amount as guys in boxing circles.”

    What does that mean?

    To me that just sounds like another way to say that boxing guys make more than UFC fighters. But on the flip side you don’t have any factual evidence that those guys in boxing circles are actually making more.

    Your comments don’t sound like you have an open mind on this. Your comments sound like you have made up your mind that boxers make more and that you don’t need proof to keep that stance.

  15. ironman says:
    April 3, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    I don’t have any numbers with respect to the lower echelon. If I had the numbers, it’d be kind of hard for me to defend the position. I don’t presume to know because there isn’t any information one way or the other.

    On the other hand, we have a good deal of data about the upper echelon, and there’s a huge difference.

    Try sending them an email. My understanding is that NSAC (at least) doesn’t deal with MMA contracts unless they are asked to settle disputes. I don’t know how they do it with boxing.

    I did find a few bits and pieces of information (including a registry of many of the large purses from the last few years of boxing, which all put even the largest MMA salaries to shame, but that’s still upper echelon stuff).

    That aside, I’m curious to see if a sanctioning body will get back to you (NSAC and NJSAC are the most likely, as they’re the most well run).

  16. garrett says:
    April 3, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    you guys totally missed great opportunities to start name calling…

  17. Matt C. says:
    April 3, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    O.k. Garrett I’ll take you up on that. Your an idiot. LOL!!!

    Back to the civil discussion now.

    But that goes back to what I said earlier. When you say MMA Fighters should get paid like pro-boxers what your really saying is you think guys like Fedor Emelianenko and Anderson Silva should get paid like Oscar De La Hoya and Manny Pacquiao then right?

    I mean you just admitted that is all the information that your looking at is the big paydays for guys like that. So why not just say that instead of making a blanket statement that isn’t necessarily true and could be very misleading if it isn’t true.

  18. Matt C. says:
    April 3, 2009 at 9:33 pm

    I did send an e-mail to the NSAC and ask about the boxing payrolls. This is the response I got:

    You can sent an email with a fax number and a street address. Then include the dates and locations of the shows in Nevada you would like the pay sheets from and I will either fax or mail them to you depending on how many you request.

    ———

    I don’t have a fax though. So how about you make a list of all the recent boxing events in Vegas and ask for that information from the NSAC. Then you can share all that information in another article while making your case for all the MMA fighters to get paid like all the pro-boxers.

  19. iamphoenix says:
    April 3, 2009 at 9:41 pm

    how about you do it.

  20. curtis says:
    April 3, 2009 at 10:41 pm

    I see it like this… When the pay was announced for the Lashley-Guida fight they announced their pay… Jones Jr. got a percent of the entire event, plus pay.

  21. ironman says:
    April 4, 2009 at 12:34 am

    Curtis, Jones didn’t get a purse. He got two thirds of the profits from the event, is my understanding. I’m sure it came out to be considerably more, but since he also promoted the fight, I don’t have a problem with it.

    Matt, I don’t have a fax address, but I may put a list together for the major shows sanctioned in Nevada and have it mailed to me.

    It’ll take a little more than a week, since I’m not at my mailing address right now, but it’d make for a good article on its own (admittedly, we’re way off topic on this article, but it happens).

    What email address did you send it to, so I can get in touch with them?

  22. Matt C. says:
    April 4, 2009 at 1:57 am

    Here is the e-mail address I found on the NSAC’s website and that I got the response from:

    boxing@boxing.nv.gov

    —————-

    Garrett Bailey – “how about you do it.”

    If I was a credible writer for this website and had made the statement insinuating that pro-boxers made more than MMA fighters and someone asked me for proof of that then I probably would take the initiative to get those facts. However I’m not the one claiming that to be fact.

    Also I think in the context Josh used that statement it is very relative considering his opinion because he said:

    “Unless the fighters are getting paid what pro-boxers are, then I have a hard time seeing an argument for sponsorial exclusivity.”

    ——-

    So if my logic is correct that statement by Josh means if in fact most MMA fighters are making what pro-boxers are then he should have no problem with sponsor exclusivity. So therefore this debate to me is relative to the article.

  23. ironman says:
    April 4, 2009 at 4:11 am

    Matt, there’s been a demonstrated difference in the upper echelon, and I’ll stand by the stats I’ve presented (since, at this point, I’m the only one who’s posted numbers). Fighters in the main events of top boxing matches are making millions. Fighters in the main events of top MMA matches are making hundreds of thousands (sometimes one million, but only very rarely). That zero means something.

    Let’s look at the peak, since those numbers are readily available:

    The largest boxing match recently was De La Hoya vs. Mayweather. The largest MMA fight was Arlovski vs. Fedor.

    Arlovski had the higher reported income (because Fedor’s percentage of the M-1 stuff was unreported, though it still probably came out to be lower), making $1.5 million. Fedor made $300,000 from Affliction. Let’s say his share from M-1 was $1.5 million, which is generous. That gives Fedor $1.8 mill and Andrei $1.5 mill.

    De La Hoya still took home more than ten times their combined salary, netting $52 million. Even Floyd, who had less than half that, dwarfed both of their paychecks with his $25 million.

    $2 million would be a mind boggling purse for an MMA fight. That, though, hardly scratches the surface of professional boxing.

    Those are the numbers that we have. I’m happy to look at the rest, but, as a start, this is a pretty big discrepancy.

  24. Matt C. says:
    April 4, 2009 at 11:29 am

    That is fine. You have given me the pay for like 3 or 4 boxers over and over now. I got those numbers down. But those numbers keep making the point I have said a couple times before. So I’ll just quote myself from a previous post:

    “But that goes back to what I said earlier. When you say MMA Fighters should get paid like pro-boxers what your really saying is you think guys like Fedor Emelianenko and Anderson Silva should get paid like Oscar De La Hoya and Manny Pacquiao then right?

    I mean you just admitted that is all the information that your looking at is the big paydays for guys like that. So why not just say that instead of making a blanket statement that isn’t necessarily true and could be very misleading if it isn’t true.”

    ———-

    If your were just insinuating that you think the top MMA fighters should get paid like the top boxers then those numbers would be great. Then the discussion would be on what effect that would have on the sport of MMA. (Because if Affliction paid Fedor boxer money like Oscar then they never make it past the first show or even have a first show.)

    If the other 8-10 boxers on one of those boxing cards actually make about the same or even less compared to the other 8-10 non main event fighters on an MMA card then your statement is very misleading isn’t it? Since you used that in expressing your opinion I would think you would want to make sure it’s right.

    Josh if you want me to send in for that information I will. I have honestly been wondering about this and had looked everywhere short of asking an Athletic Commission prior to this discussion. I just thought since you insinuated the statement and used it in expressing an opinion that you would want to show the readers of your site that your opinions are based on sound facts without question.

  25. Matt C. says:
    April 4, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    I do feel bad about not provide any stats. So here is some.

    The live gate for the two fights you compared are:

    FLOYD MAYWEATHER JR vs. OSCAR DE LA HOYA – 17,078 attendees – $18,419,200.00 – average cost of ticket $1078

    Fedor Emelianenko vs. Andrei Arlovski – 13,318 attendees – $1,429,557 – average cost of ticket $107

    ——–

    So you want MMA fans to pay 10 times what they do now for a ticket to a live MMA event?

  26. ironman says:
    April 4, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    Matt, a little over ten times the intake for a little less than thirty five times the cost (for the higher paid fighter, I’m not going to bother with the math for Fedor and Mayweather since we don’t have a solid number for Fedor, and it would be disingenuous of me to use his lower number). That’s a sizable difference in fighter percentages.

    While it’s true that general promotional intakes aren’t there yet, that’s a part of my point.

    There isn’t enough money in MMA for fighters to make a living out of fighting. So why is it ok for the UFC to place restriction on how they bring in revenue?

    Yes, they’re the promotion. I’m just not all for them doing whatever they want because they’re the source of income. I’m generally a free market guy, but the UFC is restricting things that they had no contractual obligation to restrict, and that’s a problem for me.

  27. Matt C. says:
    April 4, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    I’m against the UFC or any MMA promotion restricting sponsors as well if they are not direct competitors. That I think we agree on.

    The problem I have is people saying MMA fighters should make what pro-boxers are saying. Which you insinuated in your opinion.

    Well if MMA Fighters are paid what pro-boxers make then you have to start charging the same amount for tickets and for PPVs that those big boxing events charge right?

    You can’t just say that and then overlook all the ramifications that also come with paying them that.

    The facts show it costs ten times the amount per ticket to attend the boxing event you compared to the MMA event. That was your example I just provided the facts for it. (Not to mention the much higher PPV cost for the boxing event.)

    So do you want MMA fans to pay 10 times what they do now for a ticket to a live MMA event?

    Because if you pay MMA fighters like pro-boxers then that is what comes along with it.

  28. ironman says:
    April 4, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    That wasn’t what I said, Matt. I said: “Unless the fighters are getting paid what pro-boxers are, then I have a hard time seeing an argument for sponsorial exclusivity.”

    I know that boxing is bigger, fiscally, right now. They charge more for tickets, and they sell out. MMA can’t afford to have those kind of ticket prices right now (their fans, in point of fact, don’t have that kind of money).

    I don’t need MMA fighters to get paid like pro-boxers by the promotions. That’s not a realistic expectation. If Affliction paid Fedor and Arlovski as if they were pro boxers, they’d go bankrupt.

    I’m saying that the fighters should have every option available to make money, unless the UFC intends on compensating them for the business they’re going to lose, and has a contractual note about it.

  29. Matt C. says:
    April 4, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    Your right. I got a little off track there. That isn’t what you said. Sorry for misinterpreting that.

    This topic has just been in the back of my mind for quite some time and you happened to refresh it by bringing up something related to what I have been hearing people say before. That MMA fighters should be getting paid what pro-boxers are getting paid. Because while that sounds good to say it the ramifications from doing it could be terrible for the sport.

    I did respond to the NSAC and asked for the data on every boxing PPV held in Nevada for the last year. Because I still think that if you eliminate the top 20 highest paid guys in boxing and top 20 highest paid guys in MMA that the pay would be very comparable for everyone else.

    I do agree on the sponsor thing though. Unless they are a direct competitor then the MMA Promotion shouldn’t restrict that. However I do compare this to NASCAR where NASCAR eliminates certain sponsors from being on cars. Example being Sprint is the title sponsor for the cup series so they don’t allow any other phone companies to sponsor any cars in that series. So if the UFC has sponsor deals similar to NASCAR’s deal with Sprint that is the source of the conflict then it might change my opinion.

  30. ironman says:
    April 4, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    I’ll have some data mailed to me and post a piece on it at some point. I am curious to see what the numbers say.

    At the same time, though, if that potential for income exists, it motivates a lot of fighters, and guys know that they can develop their career and make it just that, a career.

    If a guy knows he can make $15 million in a fight, as opposed to $1.5 million, it’s going to change the way he trains, and it’s going to alter his willingness to become a true professional, who trains and does nothing else.

    That income potential may exist at some point in the future in MMA, but I don’t think it does at the moment. I’d like to build the sport to the point where that can happen (but that requires an international market, which is one of the areas the UFC has failed the worst, in my opinion).

  31. Matt C. says:
    April 4, 2009 at 10:13 pm

    I don’t want this to come across the wrong way but are you somehow biased against the UFC or something?

    It just seems like you take shots at the UFC when it isn’t even necessary to make your point.

  32. ironman says:
    April 5, 2009 at 1:34 am

    I’m not biased against the UFC (I’m happy to defend them on this “manager pass” issue, because I happen to think that the Sherdog story is, at best, misleading). I love watching their fights and I think that they have most of the top fighters in every weightclass. I, like almost every other MMA fan in the U.S., came across the UFC first.

    I have a long list of things that I absolutely love about the UFC. But their payroll is not one of those things.

  33. Matt C. says:
    April 5, 2009 at 11:08 am

    O.k. that’s cool. I thought I might just be imagining it or trying to read too much into something. I will at least share one of the comments that made me wonder.

    “I’d like to build the sport to the point where that can happen (but that requires an international market, which is one of the areas the UFC has failed the worst, in my opinion).”

    —-

    That just seemed like an out of the blue criticism of the UFC. I mean has anybody else done a better job at creating an international MMA market?

  34. ironman says:
    April 5, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Not really, but no one else is in a position to. K-1 has done a lot to bring full contact fighting to Eastern and central Europe in the form of their kickboxing shows, but has largely failed to market their MMA product to that same market.

    The UFC’s attempt to expand into Germany is a good move, as was their attempt to move into Britain and Ireland, and both are showing promise. Still, when the UFC knocked down Pride, they had an opportunity to move in on an Asian market, picking up highly marketable contracts, and they failed to do this. (I’ll talk about this is one of the parts of my Pride piece)

    Somebody needs to take the international market, and I’d like to see the UFC move into south east Asia as they move into Europe. Perhaps that’s a little ambitious, but I think it’s definitely doable.

  35. Matt C. says:
    April 5, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    Well next time I’ll try and stay on topic better. Thanks.

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