Beating Champs: Minotauro’s Game and His Demon (3 of 5)
By Josh Stein on May 29, 2008
There’s a common denominator in Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira’s decisive losses, at least, the decisive ones. That common denominator is Fedor Emelianenko.
Nogueira has lost four professional mixed martial arts fights. Two have been by controversial split decision, and the other two have been to Fedor. That said, there’s a reason why Fedor beat Nogueira twice, and there’s an opponent who can give Nogueira a serious problem in the same department as Fedor.
Nogueira follows a classic dictum that stands among a lot of grapplers and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighters who have made their way into mixed martial arts, and his dependence on this dictum is, at least in my mind, what has caused him the most serious problems.
Most analysts are quick to point out that when two top grapplers are fighting, the matchup almost always comes down to who is the better striker. Nogueira has taken this seriously and his boxing has improved a great deal. His standup led him to wins over grapplers like Josh Barnett, who he could control on the ground and beat standing up, which the judges generally acknowledge in their decisions.
The problem is that Nogueira can’t deal with a grappler who doesn’t follow that same ideology. That’s the problem that Fedor has presented to many grapplers, not just Minotauro, and it’s a problem that, even more than Fedor himself, I think is Nogueira’s greatest downfall.
Nogueira’s jiu-jitsu is great when you look at it next to opponents who don’t have jiu-jitsu. He got his reputation as a submission fighter beating guys like Bob Sapp and Semmy Schilt, who, realistically speaking, don’t have fantastic ground games. While Nogueira’s jiu-jitsu is enough to beat guys who don’t have training in the art, he’s never submitted a top grappler and couldn’t finish middle of the pack MMA fighters like Pawel Nastula (a judoka with a shaky MMA record, despite having fought very good competition) on the ground.
If we put Nogueira in the cage with a fellow Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu blackbelt like Gabriel Gonzaga or Fabricio Werdum, there’s a very good chance Nogueira would win the fight, but there’s almost no chance that win would be by a submission. It’s not realistic to expect Nogueira to submit someone who has as good a submission game as he does, perhaps better, when we consider that Gonzaga and, especially, Werdum have very notable records in the jiu-jitsu world.
Nogueira, in my opinion, would beat those two fighters the same way that he beats everybody who presents him a problem in the grappling world: by forcing them to obey the dictum that when grapplers meet they showcase their striking.
Fedor, as I mentioned, doesn’t follow that dictum. He’s willing to grapple with anybody, and he’s done so with top tier wrestlers and pretty much anybody else he’s stepped in the ring with. Still, for the sake of making a point about the general concern over Nogueira’s problem, I want to present the one other fighter, besides Fedor, who can beat Nogueira in the grappling, and explain why.
My pick as the best man to beat the UFC Interim Heavyweight Champion: Jeff Monson
First I want to clarify why I don’t think (and didn’t think, in picking for their fight) that Monson’s poor matchup with Barnett has any impact on how the Snowman matches up with Nogueira, and why Monson is a better matchup than Barnett.
Monson lost to Barnett because he couldn’t get the fight where he wanted it to be. Part of that is from the obvious fact that Monson isn’t very tall, but mostly it’s because Barnett is a very powerful wrestler and can keep the fight standing against Monson, who’s skills matter most once the fight hits the mat, while he sometimes has trouble getting it there.
Nogueira doesn’t have Barnett’s wrestling ability, and if Monson did close the distance, it’s doubtful that Nogueira could keep the fight standing.
Both Barnett and Monson have the wrestling skills to take Nogueira to the ground, the difference is that Barnett adheres to that same dictum as Gonzaga and Werdum, he would allow Nogueira to showcase his striking, and he would lose because of it. Monson does not follow that dictum, and so he would have no reservations about taking down Nogueira and working from the top.
Everyone will say that I am underestimating Nogueira and that Nogueira is as good a grappler as Monson. That’s not true.
Monson is one of the best grapplers in the world and, in fact, many consider him the top heavyweight grappler on the planet. The only arguable alternative is Roger Gracie, and even that is hard to argue, because of Monson’s experience and career of dominance in no-gi competitions, namely the Abu Dhabi Combat Club.
Monson’s grappling is a world ahead of Nogueira’s old school Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu from the straight, double-wrist-control guard. The Snowman would not necessarily pass the guard easily, but he would pass it, because he, like Fedor, knows how to control an opponent. (the difference, of course is, that Fedor’s methodology is strike based and so he doesn’t compete at ADCC)
If Nogueira is forced to fight off of his back against an opponent who knows more about grappling than he does, Nogueira may not get submitted, but he will be sufficiently controlled.
The bout is, like all of the fights with champions, certainly a matter of matchups. Monson is hardly a better fighter than Noguiera, because he lacks the capacity to beat anyone who can force him to fight standing up. However, Nogueira is not on of the fighters with that capacity, and if the UFC made this matchup happen, Monson would pull this fight to the ground, utilize one of his go-to guard passes (like the can opener) and get into a dominant position where he would punish Nogueira.
Next time, the second hardest champion to pick apart: UFC welterweight phenomenon Georges St. Pierre.
Filed Under: Opinion
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“Monson is one of the best grapplers in the world and, in fact, many consider him the top heavyweight grappler on the planet. The only arguable alternative is Roger Gracie, and even that is hard to argue, because of Monson’s experience and career of dominance in no-gi competitions, namely the Abu Dhabi Combat Club.”
Monson’s sub grappling style doesn’t translate to MMA because he would be constantly stood up. That’s why he gets owned all the time. Being in your opponents guard or passing to half or side control isn’t worth that much (which is all he does to win). Also fighters in MMA tend to have a lot better wrestling than the average jiu jitsu wizard he takes down and lays on.
You’re right to bring up Roger as a better competitor, considering he wins almost all of his matches by submission and rarely loses if ever, even in the Absolute which has the best grapplers, where Monson wins almost none of his by submission and got knocked out of the absolute twice, once by Saulo and once by Shaolin, who are much smaller grapplers. You’d also be right to bring up Pe de Pano, Arona, Werdum or Robert Drysdale, if you were limiting it strictly to heavyweights.
Would Monson beat Nogueira in an ADCC rules match? Probably but it would be by advantage or a point for a take down. Would Monson be able to pass Nog’s guard? Extremely doubtful, Nog’s guard is very hard to pass. Monson stuggled to pass Tim Sylvia’s guard. Would Monson be able to stay busy enough in Nog’s guard to not be stood up? Even more doubtful, his ground and pound has never been very good.
Fedor has some of the best ground and pound and guard passing in the sport and he spent the vast majority of both their complete encounters behind Nog’s guard scoring points occasionally. Monson has never shown good ground and pound or guard passing and you think he’s going to get on top of Nog and punish him? Barnett has better wrestling, guard passing, and top game than Monson and he was unable to keep Nogueira down.
trevor, Monson’s grappling game is actually better suited for MMA and NHB, where he doesn’t have to worry about being DQ’d over can openers, like in his match with Pe De Pano.
Your right that he works slowly and is basically a point fighter in submission grappling comps, but he is explosive, and is one of the few guys I can actually envision finishing Nog if he hits him hard, because Nog recovers so well from strikes. (if Monson clamps down on a submission, he can finish that fight)
Monson would, realistically, kill Nog in an ADCC match. And you’re right that it would probably be on points, but I have a feeling it would be a big margin.
Monson would be able to pass Nog’s guard because he wouldn’t have the length issues he’s had with with Sylvia, at least in my mind.
I disagree that Monson’s groundnpound isn’t that good. He’s dominated the guys he has passed and, with the exception of Sylvia, that’s been almost everyone he’s gotten to the mat.
Fedor never really passes the guard. He’s generally quite content to strike from inside of it, and the only fighter he ever mounted in Pride was Schilt (which I would imagine he did because he didn’t want to deal with Schilt’s long ass legs).
Barnett isn’t a better grappler than Monson, and I disagree that he has better guard passing. He tends to work footlocks straight away instead of looking at positions. I agree that he has better wrestling, though I don’t think his top game is as technical as Monson.
What’s unfortunate about this match is that the more I think about it, the more I know Monson wouldn’t finish, and we’d be dragged to a painful decision. That’s really what pains me, is that to beat Nog it’s going to take 25 minutes.
[...] Dr J wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerpt [...]
Monson has never tapped anyone in MMA with a high-level ground game. Whatever you think about Nog’s grappling game, he has tapped better fighters than Monson has.
Instead of just saying he’s dominated the guys hes passed on with his ground and pound, why don’t you present some examples, because I’m seriously drawing a blank. I literally can’t think of anyone he has ever dominated with ground and pound. I know for 100% certainty he’s never dominated anyone with a good guard with ground and pound, or tapped anyone with a good guard in MMA. I can’t speak for no-gi grappling because he’s so prolific, he probably has tapped someone good at one time or another.
“Monson would, realistically, kill Nog in an ADCC match.”
Who has Monson EVER killed in an ADCC match?
“Barnett isn’t a better grappler than Monson”
The fight that just happened where Barnett got him down and easily passed his guard directly disagrees with this assessment.
PS just in case your interested here is what Jeff Monson said about grappling with Barnett
“I haven’t been submitted by anybody as much as I’ve been submitted by him in practice, so it’s one of those things in my mind. I know he’s capable of catching me in a million different submissions, so that’s always playing in my mind.
I’ve probably had rougher times than better times, to be honest with you, in practice with him — more unpleasant than pleasant memories. I’ve just got to hopefully come in and kind of initiate my will in the fight, and make it not how it’s been in practice.”
from this interview
Who has Monson dominated in ADCC?
How about Gonzaga and Werdum? How about Rhadi Ferguson?
Slow, tedious dominations by way of points? Sure. But there are definitely dominations.
Who has Monson submitted in MMA?
Fair enough. Besides Tengiz, Fujita and the great can Brandon Lee Hinkle, Monson’s list consists of nobodies as well as Nogueira’s.
My point was that Nogueira’s guard is passable and if Monson does pass it and manages to stay active, what’s Nog gonna do?
In terms of Barnett being better suited to grapple with Monson, I’ll be honest when I say that I think Barnett is a better grappler than Nog and, unlike Nogueira, Barnett has submitted some credible grapplers. If he took Nog down, I think he would win that fight. (instead of trying to stay standing like he did in their fight) Unfortunately, he doesn’t tend to think it’s in his best interest to stay in that position.
Again, though, you have to understand that the Monson vs. Barnett matchup is different because then we have to talk about Monson’s back game, which isn’t the best because of his short legs. It’s a different conversation.
“How about Gonzaga and Werdum? How about Rhadi Ferguson?”
Oh yeah? When did he face either Gonzaga or Werdum at ADCC? I honestly can’t remember that and I can’t find any records of it at adcombat. Were they super fights?
Ferguson is a great judoka. I don’t know how that translates to success under ADCC rules.
All three of those matches were, I believe, ’05 at 99+ kg. Not exactly sure about the year, but I’m fairly sure they were tournament matches for that 99+ division.
oh man I’m dumb, yeah, that’s exactly right
You’re not dumb, you just made a mistake…it’s cool man.