bj penn does not have a black belt in judo. perhaps you’re thinking about the time he out-grappled a judoka who had a black belt..to my knowledge penn does not have a black belt in judo and i have never seen proof in print or even heard it mentioned.

kid fights at featherweight, so being “one of the few guys who can cut to 155″ is an odd statement.

but……………

You mentioned Josh bringing up old fights to prove Penn’s standup….

didn’t you just try to do the same about Pulver beating Penn? That was 7 years ago…

Why don’t we move on to Sunday’s Faber vs Pulver fight?

The guy who took him to decision and won by boxing?

“Huerta hasn’t beat anyone that could beat Sherk, let alone Penn…..”

Maybe so, maybe not. I think Guida would have a shot against Sherk since he has equivalent wrestling and good cardio. But that’s not how I evaluate fights. I think the skills Huerta has shown (toughness, cardio, good sub defense, good chin, nearly impossible to hold down, frenetic pace) give him a shot to beat BJ.

“We’re talking about a guy who showed up and decimated three great standup fighters in his first three UFC fights, when no one even thought he knew how to strike.”

Uno, Thomas and Gilbert aren’t great stand up fighters. And come on man, how are you going to bring up fights from that long ago to say how good of a striker BJ is today? Why don’t you bring up the fact he couldn’t put away Uno the second time, Pulver or Serra? Don’t cherry pick. I never, ever said BJ doesn’t have good striking, or good power. He can hurt guys standing and he has a great chin, no doubt. But he can be out-struck and he fights at a really slow pace if he can’t put it away early and can get away with it.

I also disagree that Penn has a more diverse striking style. Kenny has a much larger variety of kicks, elbows and punches, in my opinion. Another area Kenny is stronger than Penn standing is his use of combinations, he sets up his punches with his kicks very well.

I agree Penn is more likely to KO Kenny in the clinch than Kenny is to KO him, but Kenny is dangerous in the clinch as well and you can ask Chris Leben what I mean.

“What I will say is that BJ has more powerful wrestling than anyone Florian has beaten and even (a point that you have argued for me)”

BJ has better DEFENSIVE wrestling than anyone Florian has beaten. Note Randy Couture didn’t say he couldn’t get BJ down or hold him down and he also was on his back a lot. I don’t think Penn has a great offensive wrestling game, certainly not as good as Mishima’s, and Florian was able to stuff some of Mishima’s shots. I think short of being hurt and pulling guard, Kenny could keep it on his feet against BJ if he wanted to.

“As much as matchups make fights, this fight isn’t a matchup based fight.”

Every fight ever fought has been a match-up based fight.

” I tend to think that freestyle is a more applicable form of wrestling”

You’re going to have to back this up with something. I don’t think there is any demonstrable proof freestyle is better for MMA than Greco, in fact I can think of a lot of situations when being able to control and takedown from the clinch is much, much safer and more reliable than shooting a single or double leg.

“Uno’s not a good striker? Curran’s not a good striker?”

No and no.

“More importantly, though, KID’s striking is impressive by performance. It’s impressive because he dominates guys and controls guys and, frankly, outclasses guys. Huerta and Florian can do that, sure, but neither of them can keep a fight with BJ standing if he doesn’t want them to.”

He didn’t dominate Bibiano Fernades or whoever that brazillian dude was. He doesn’t dominate every time out. He has knock out power, for sure. I don’t know where you’re coming from with Huerta not being able to stay off his back, no one has ever kept him on his back and he’s fought a lot of guys who are better at taking people down than BJ. And I think Florian could stay up against BJ too, at least some of the time. He stuffed Din Thomas and Mishima.

Florian has good standup, but you’re delusional if you think that he’s going to be able to pick apart Penn. Penn is a more aggressive striker, he’s got a better chin, he’s got faster hands and a more versatile striking style that comprises a more solid clinch game (both from the thai plum and with dirty boxing) and from open range (where he has quick punches and substantial knees).

You think that Florian could hurt Penn off of his back? That’s your delusion.

I won’t deny that Florian has great elbows off of his back, and I won’t deny that he has a great submission game from there. What I will say is that BJ has more powerful wrestling than anyone Florian has beaten and even (a point that you have argued for me) possibly Sherk, who he stuffed a few times.

Florian is a great fighter and is a very well rounded guy, but if you are going to beat BJ you have to be able to win the fight somewhere.

You can’t have good skills everywhere and step in against a guy who has better skills everywhere. That’s a fight you are doomed to lose. As much as matchups make fights, this fight isn’t a matchup based fight.

Couture was a multiple time Olympic alternate. While that’s a huge accomplishment, and the weight difference is notable, it’s also important to recognize that there’s a difference between Greco, where Couture was an Olympic alternate, and freestyle, where KID competes. I tend to think that freestyle is a more applicable form of wrestling, but I think it’s more important to recognize that that’s where BJ doesn’t have nearly as much training, unlike Greco where he has alot of experience working with guys like Couture and he can bring his Judo background into play.

As far as KID’s striking:

Uno’s not a good striker? Curran’s not a good striker?

More importantly, though, KID’s striking is impressive by performance. It’s impressive because he dominates guys and controls guys and, frankly, outclasses guys. Huerta and Florian can do that, sure, but neither of them can keep a fight with BJ standing if he doesn’t want them to. At least KID has the ability to sprawl and brawl with BJ if he’s winning the standup.

However, I can’t stand Penn but we all know he is heads and shoulders above the rest of that class in every position!

Penn is not a standup god… but you don’t have to be faster than the bear, just faster than the people who you are with……

He is the best boxer at 155. If you don’t believe so ask Jens Pulver…

Huerta hasn’t beat anyone that could beat Sherk, let alone Penn…..

Where is Kenny better? I don’t think that’s what fights are about, we can’t quantify who has “better” skills in each area, every fighter can do different things in different positions. I provided two examples of where Kenny could do damage to BJ, leg kicks and with elbows from his back. If you think BJ Penn is some kind of stand up god because he spent three rounds beating up a short wrestler with no punching power, that’s your problem. And if you can find an example of anyone ground and pounding Huerta, one person, I would love to hear it.

I even said I thought BJ would handle KID striking, I just thought it was weird you think KID is a particularly good striker since he’s never even fought anyone with good stand up.

Where is Kenny better than BJ? He loses that fight everywhere. Period. Huerta does too, and I’m not convinced that BJ couldn’t groundnpound him if he wanted to.

You think that BJ would be able to handle an Olympic caliber wrestler? Okay. You’re entitled to that opinion.

You think BJ would manhandle KID’s striking? You’re entitled to that opinion.

You’re entitled to your opinions, but you’re wrong.

Your opinion on KID’s striking is befuddling too, I get the impression you haven’t actually seen any of KID’s fights.

As for people who could effectively counterstrike against BJ, why not just bring up the most obvious person, who you even mention in the article, which is Kenny Florian. Sherk’s leg kicks had BJ icing his leg in the back after the fight and Kenny has much better leg kicks than Sherk. Kenny won’t go in with the reach disadvantage Sherk did and though people haven’t been talking about it, Sherk was landing clean blows during the fight. Kenny is also dangerous any time the fight hits the ground with his elbows. He could even stop the fight against BJ with BJ in his guard.

Huerta is hard to hold down, has incredible submission defense, has endless cardio, and decent striking… plus his style is to push the pace. If his chin held up he could easily gas BJ and outwork him for a decision.