Are Judges Favoring the Lyoto Machida Style?
By Brandt DeLorenzo on May 27, 2008
Or is he really that good? I’m certainly assuming it’s the former as I was not impressed with the Brazilian once again during UFC 84. As Machida pulled off a 30-27 decision win over Tito Ortiz, I wondered if UFC judges were really listening to Mike Goldberg when he told us (once again) that each five minute round would by decided by effective striking, grappling, aggression, and octagon control by the judges.
For the record, I have nothing against Machida. Sure, he was boring at UFC 84, but I didn’t think BJ Penn was exciting as he jabbed his way through nearly three full rounds either. I’m also not a Tito Ortiz fan more than any MMA junkie. Ortiz has been around long enough that I’m aware of his abilities and I respect him as a ground and pound fighter.
It’s not that Machida is a bad fighter, he is just able to exploit the flaw in the judging system to win 8 out of 13 fights via decision. So more than 60% of his fights are left to the judges as he dances away from the fight and he continues to move on up in the UFC’s light heavyweight division. Two TKO’s in 2003, a guillotine in 2004, a rare technical knockout in 2005, and an arm triangle choke against Rameau Sokoudjou in 2007 make up his decisive wins as a fighter. The rest of his fights, the eight he didn’t end, were left to three judges to decide and only once did a split decision nearly cost him his undefeated status. That was in 2003, quite a while back if we are talking about current MMA standards, against an unknown Sam Greco.
I didn’t really think my thoughts on Machida were worthy of an article until I spotted two quick clips of him battling Tito Ortiz on BloodyElbow from MMA-Core. In both clips, you see Machida attack and then immediately fall back even after he lands successful blows. While I can see his double kick could have forced him to momentarily step backwards, his explosive knee into Ortiz’s liver deserved more than a side-step into safety and out of range. Whatever happened to the fighters instinct to move in for the kill? There’s no aggression in moving backwards after every offensive attack.
As for octagon control, Ortiz moved the pace throughout the fight as Machida continued to circle the cage. You could see Ortiz step back and drop his hands as a sign as frustration when Machida refused to engage. Octagon control went to Ortiz, why was no credit given? A fight scored 30-27 means one fighter was able to dominate the four aspects of judging criteria for three rounds in this non-title fighter. But did Machida really do more than avoid confrontation to set up the seldow offensive attack? I don’t think he did.
And as a side note, will Machida ever get a shot at the light heavyweight title by dodging the competition? While the UFC has continued to trim its roster of habitual losers and boring fighters, Lyoto Machida continues to move forward. Other fighters, like Andre Arlovski, who have engaged in a less than stellar performances and came away with the win, had been showing signs of frustration with the organization. We know that Machida would be a terrible candidate as a UFC champion with his defensive fight style and inability to gain mainstream acceptance by only speaking Portuguese. Is he doomed to fighting the gatekeepers to the the belt until he finally comes away with another decisive victory (if you count his submission over Sokoudjou, a Judo fighter) in the UFC or loses? He’s potentially up against Wanderlei Silva, Chuck Liddell (imagine a counter-puncher verses Machida), Muaricio “Shogun” Rua, Rameau Sokoudjou, and the loser of Rampage/Griffin. There’s a long way to go for someone who has escaped the wrath of many. Tito Ortiz almost had the triangle choke – a couple of judges, if UFC judging rules are properly upheld, may finally sink in an unescpable choke of their own.
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Brandt, check out this post on from Sherdog.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/machidas-sytle-entertainment-value-787177/
Excerpts:
“The UFC was put togehter to see who’s fighting style is superior. I think limiting a fighters success because of lack of enteratinment value is a crime. Look at Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Their boring and unenjoyable, however, they are effective,but extremely successful. Do you think the NBA would limit the best team in order to provide more entertainment, no, this would ruin the integrity of the sport. Similar to Machida, the spurs are great defensively, very methodical, and calculating on offense. I don’t know, maybe that is a formula for success.”
Whatever happened to the fighters instinct to move in for the kill?
Every fighter has a different style and fighting philosophy. Machida does go for the kill, he has a different approach. How many times have you seen a fighter go in for the final kill only to be KO’ed themselves? Wanderlei’s exciting and entertaining wreckless abandon has also cost him some fights, and if he lost this fight against Jardine, many would question whether or not he’s past his prime and unable compete against UFC fighters. Honestly, I really could not believe how many people felt he was in a real do or die situation to save his spot on the UFC roster. And let’s not look no further than Houston Alexander. Exciting style? Check. Entertaining? Check. He lost to Thiago and than James Irwin. If he loses a third fight in a row, do you think you will see Alexander in the Octagon in the near future? Probably not.
Do we begin to question Jardine? Was his unorthodox cautious style gets called into question. Where was his killer instinct in his fight against Chuck Liddell? Surely he could have finished Chuck? But he didn’t. When he moved forward to finish Houston Alexander after the very quick knockdown, what happened to Jardine? I’m not arguing whether or not Machida is boring, I thought the 2nd round was boring, but that’s due to both fighters. Hey, Anderson Silva is very boring for the 1st minute of most of his UFC fights except the match against Chris Leben.
Are judges favoring Lyoto’s style? Yes, they’re favoring the amount of effective strikes. Hopefully Joel Silva will give Machida an opponent that will force Machida to engage in a general crowd pleasing manner.
Everybody loves the offensive minded fighter but does not appreciate a defensive strategy. Entertainment is a factor, but if that was really factored many lay and pray wrestlers will find difficulty making it into the PPV shows or main events. Too bad every fighter can’t be like Clay Guida and Wanderlei Silva.
Brandt,
Machida was getting beat up in the clinch. The knee to the body was from the clinch. So he landed his blow, moved to the side, got out of the clinch, and as soon as he saw Tito going down he went in for the kill. It’s not like he stood there and watched Tito go down and didn’t do anything about it.
Terrible article and fyi he spoke english during the countdown to ufc84 show and at the post-fight interview, which means the UFC is pushing him to learn english and he is being groomed for a title shot sooner than later.
He massively outpointed tito on the feet, scored a takedown and a knockdown and you are suggesting that it wasn’t a CLEAR 30-27? Maybe you should spend some more time watching the sport and getting some knowledge before posting write-ups. Sorry if that sounds harsh but placing columns on public sites means you are opening yourself to criticism and this articly simply doesnt cut it.
Hey Adam – I saw what he did, but I wasn’t seeing the killer instinct. He didn’t do anything wrong, obviously. He’s just not a risky fighter.
As for Mr. Elusive here, the entire premise of the article was about Machida’s style and the judging around it. When his fights go to a decision, judges are quick to score 10-9′s without factoring agression and control. I didn’t say Tito clearly dominated any of the rounds and I’m not surpised he lost 30-27, I’m looking more at the judging criteria while using Machida’s recent fight as an example.
As for your overly harsh critique – don’t worry, I’m not offended.
Brandt,
It by no means was a bad article. It was just badly mis-read by VERY elusive. Seems that people get very touchy when it comes to fighters they care about.
Actually, Curtis Clontz you are wrong. It’s not about emotion here, but who is most capable in the end. By the way, Machida has the belt so get over it. Machida is a smart fighter who doesn’t use his head to block like many of the moron UFC fighters.
Just one of the challenges of an opinion site!
“As for octagon control, Ortiz moved the pace throughout the fight as Machida continued to circle the cage. You could see Ortiz step back and drop his hands as a sign as frustration when Machida refused to engage. Octagon control went to Ortiz, why was no credit given?”
Tito didn’t set the pace of the fight, he was frustrated because he DIDN’T have control over what was happening. Who the hell would get frustrated if they were in control of what was happening? Like, “Oh man, I have this fucken octgon control, damn it!!!” Give me a break. Machida decided everything that happened in that fight. He decided when they engaged, he decided when it went to the ground. He had CONTROL of the action.
Then why didn’t he end it? Not to mention when he he almost lost when Ortiz had that triangle clamped down. I don’t think he decided that. Machida is a decision fighter because he don’t want to control the fight. He uses defense to win.
I agree with you on this one, Brandt, though for slightly different reasons, and on a slightly different level.
Personally, I can’t stand Machida, because he’s so unapologetic about being incredibly boring.
When Andrei went to decision, he apologized to his fans. Why doesn’t Lyoto feel the need to apologize? Why does he think it’s okay to do that again and again?
“I’m gonna delay for three rounds” is not a game plan, and no one should be encouraging him to do it.
As soon as we start acting like decisions are okay, we’ve becoming boxing, and nobody wants that.
If you guys are so worried about fights going to decisions or being boring why don’t you check out pro-wrestling? They don’t have any judges and they try their hardest to be exciting.
“Then why didn’t he end it?”
So ability to end the fight at any time is your definition of octagon control? In that case, if you really think Tito had control, why didn’t HE end it? Shouldn’t you be pissed at the guy who could have finished the fight the whole time and didn’t, not the poor guy who is being controlled?
Trevor,
The UFC is in the business of making exciting fights. That is one of the reasons for the latest cuts. You can’t disagree that the best fights are in the UFC.
Machida is just a boring figter, you can blame his style.
RULEBOOK
J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler’s takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities
Yes Machida won. By definition he had control. However he is using the rules to his advantage and it will bite him in the end. Fights that go to the judges don’t always go your way. He bobbed and weaved, and landed just enough.
It was boring and in my opinion not something the UFC wants to promote. it is not good for the sport.
trevor, you’re missing the point.
The point is not simply that Machida’s boring, it what that does to the sport. There are plenty of reasons not to watch pro-wrestling, for sure. The problem is actually something that you mentioned:
“Shouldn’t you be pissed at the guy who could have finished the fight the whole time and didn’t, not the poor guy who is being controlled?”
Yeah, and I am pissed at that guy. His name is Lyoto Machida.
“You can’t disagree that the best fights are in the UFC.”
I don’t know, so far this year I’ve liked Pellegrino/Diaz and Bocek/Danzig best of the UFC’s fights and I think Hansen/Alvarez and Uno/Ishida were as good as those.
“It was boring and in my opinion not something the UFC wants to promote. it is not good for the sport.”
Randy Couture v. Tim Sylvia was a boring fight. Georges St. Pierre v. Josh Koscheck was a boring fight. Boring fights and fighters are part of the sport, just like boring players and teams are parts of other sports. What would hurt the sport would be favoring exciting fighters over more skilled fighters, which inherently compromises the integrity of the sport. I watch fights to see whose skills match up with who, how great fighters deal with each other, etc. I know there are both types of fans, but seriously, if you screw great fighters over just because they are boring you really have taken a step away from being a competition and a step towards “sports entertainment”.
“Yeah, and I am pissed at that guy. His name is Lyoto Machida.”
So you honestly think Machida could have finished the fight at any time? If you haven’t noticed Tito is a tough guy to put away. It took intense barrages of punches from Chuck Liddell, who hits way, way harder than Machida, to put Tito away. And Lyoto jumped on and tried to finish Tito twice, at the end of the first and end of the fourth. You can’t honestly say he never tried to finish the fight.
ooops, I meant end of the third not fourth.
I wouldn’t agree that he didn’t try to finish it, but he holds back. I’ll leave my final say at that – Lyoto Machida is a fighter who holds back. Does that sound good to everyone?
I would agree because I feel for him to win he has to hold back… He can’t push and come forward, it pushes to his weaknesses.
Boring?
Tell me you weren’t standing or atleast on the tip of your chair when Randy hit Tim and almost finished the fight right off, or the way he dominated the taller fighter?
The Koscheck versus St. Pierre was only boring if you are a superficial fan. Meaning if you don’t enjoy the true sport of the fights. That fight was great in the sense that you had the most decorated college wrestler in the UFC vs. what many consider to be one of the best wrestlers in his own right.
You are also trying to compare apples to footballs. You can argue that those are boring fights, but can you argue that Randy and GSP are boring fighters? Big difference my friend.
“Tell me you weren’t standing or atleast on the tip of your chair when Randy hit Tim and almost finished the fight right off”
Yeah, and then I practically came when Randy did nothing with back control for the rest of the round.
“The Koscheck versus St. Pierre was only boring if you are a superficial fan. ”
Bullshit. It’s boring if you realize GSP was stalling, didn’t know how to execute a kimura and know Koscheck is notorious for not practicing wrestling in training and came in with the worst gameplan in history. Essentially you saw a guy who trained a ton of wrestling out-wrestling a smaller man who doesn’t train much wrestling. The only interesting part of that fight on any level were the take downs. If you thought that fight was exciting, I question how objectively you observe fights, because I suppose it might have been cool if I was a GSP fan.
“You can argue that those are boring fights, but can you argue that Randy and GSP are boring fighters? Big difference my friend.”
I wouldn’t say either guy was a boring fighter but both have been in their fair share of boring fights. You say you can appreciate the GSP/Koscheck fight as a display of skill… well what’s preventing you from appreciating Machida’s skill? FightMetric says one of the rounds he didn’t have a single blow landed on him.
And I agree he “holds back” but he still tried to finish Tito twice, and Tito showed off his guard skills in the fight as well, and Machida showed the skill to escape.
If the fight was 10 rounds, we would have seen some action, but unfortunately not much happened in those 15 minutes. If everyone fights like Machida and wins via decision, there will be 10 undefeated fighters and no fans to pay $200 to watch live fights.
hahaha what the fuck you really think anyone could do what Machida does?
Yea, lots of guys do it. BJ Penn did it…and he did it better on Saturday night.
I have never said Machida didn’t have skill. Anyone fighting in the UFC has skill.
The problem is that he hasnt fought Griffin, Rampage, Silva, Lidell or Shogun yet. That is: guys on his level and weight aswell as guys who need to start sparring against karatepractioners if they want to catch the irritating dragon and hit his nose really hard.
Machida should not be judged by his performance against Tito — Machida had a very poor performance due to a sickness (flu) and he still won easily. I do not see how anyone could have scored the fight for Ortiz. Machida did control the action. This was, to me, a boring/exciting fight. There is something about anticipation that makes Machida’s style exciting IMO. I would not want every fighter to be like Machida, but I like him just because he is different.
Henri, I don’t think that anyone is judging Machida just on his performance against Tito. It isn’t like this is the only fight he has won by decision.
I mean, he’s finished one opponent thus far in his UFC career, and he hasn’t stopped anybody standing up. I’ll be honest when I say that I have a hard time calling anyone a striker when they don’t knock people out.
You’re entitled to like Machida, your opinion is welcome. Unfortunately, Machida can’t be dubbed a serious title contender fighting the way that he fights. He can’t be called a legit force if he’s not finishing guys.
When Machida knocks out his first few guys, and if he does it with some force, then we can talk about how great a striker he is. Unfortunately, he has yet to do that and, as a result, I have yet to start recognizing his legitimacy standing up.
This article was a complete wash out.
This quote from Blatnick at the original ufc may clear things up…
“First lesson of the octagon, SURVIVAL”
If you can’t survive you can’t win.
Well here’s another quote for you and this one isn’t from 1993, grafdog. “If you don’t engage, you’re better off in another sport.”
“effective striking, grappling, aggression, and octagon control”
To the author: what part of this confuses you? You say Tito Ortiz controlled the Octagon more effectively? He did not. He may have been the aggressor, but it was not EFFECTIVE aggression.
For EFFECTIVE striking, Machida won. For EFFECTIVE grappling, Machida dominated. For EFFECTIVE aggression, again Machida won. For EFFECTIVE octagon control, Machida won.
Machida chose his moments to fight, and EFFECTIVELY made the most of every attack.
Ortiz was beaten and bloodied, thrown at will, taken down at will, and pummeled at will. Every Ortiz attack was deflected, parried or outright stuffed. One single sub attempt in 3 rounds does not win you a round, let alone a decision.
People who do not like Machida’s fighting style are just showing their ignorance of mixed martial arts.
yeah what procyonb said.
i watched it and i thought machida destroyed ortiz.
A good site, good short contents of the good work. Congratulations !,
He’s a shotokan practitioner!!! How does no one get that? It is the very nature of his system to hit and not get hit. Remember guys Funakoshi said “there is no first attack in karate.” It is a defensive art and will always be one (to the true practitioners, not the fake posers). If you try to make it offensive you will lose and give the art a bad name. Besides Liddell used to circle alot and punch while “running away” to knock people out. He didn’t start losing until he started pretending to be a boxer and “engage”. Anyway, if you want exciting then maybe you should make the rules like chuck norris’ world combat league and penalize for not moving forward, it will guarantee knockouts or at the very least people who can’t fight for more than 1 5 min round. Look a little closer guys the truth is in front of you.
Mike, Chuck used to run away, but Chuck knocked people out. Lyoto doesn’t. Chuck’s shortcomings aside, there was a point in his career when he knocked people out, and wasn’t on the other end of those starchings.
I don’t know what truth you’re talking about. Lyoto is a good striker who keeps his distance and doesn’t knock guys out.
Some people don’t like that he doesn’t finish.
Some people love that he’s a technical striker.
Both are legitimate perspectives. Both points of view can even be held by one person. There are people who don’t appreciate the technical ability and there are people who don’t care about the knockouts.
Clearly, you’re one of the latter. That’s a legit opinion, but you’re not talking about any “truth’s” that aren’t already well documented and obvious to anyone who’s seen Machida fight.
Obviously Josh can read what type of fan I am. Yes knockouts, although fun to watch are not important to me. I enjoy displays of skill and technique (especially foot sweeps). I probably should’ve been a little more specific about which truth I was referring to. It was concerning the original question of the judges favoring Machida’s style. I don’t know if they favor it, but there’s obviously nothing they can do about it. If you don’t get hit or taken down they can’t say you lost. The problem is with the rules and scoring system of the UFC and not with the fighters themselves. People will perform in a way thats advantageous to them and in a way that they can get away with. While obviously not entertaining or exciting it is legal.
Machida has created a fighting style that none of his opponents has figured out yet. Keep in mind most of his fights are won by “unanimous” decisions and contrary to belief- he has fought very tough competition throughout his entire MMA career.
Yes, his style is poor for ratings because it is less exiting, but isn’t it interesting to the haters how dominant his style is? Isn’t that the true essence of MMA? Machida symbolizes the evolution of MMA fighting!
Can Machida be revolutionizing the sport with his style similar to what Royce Gracie did for MMA w/ Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? This is what UFC has always been scared of. Flashy finishes is what fans want to see after all right.
“We know that Machida would be a terrible candidate as a UFC champion with his defensive fight style and inability to gain mainstream acceptance by only speaking Portuguese.”
The UFC champion should be about who is the best, who wins the fights, not about what language the person speaks, or fighting style they are.
This isn’t fake wrestling folks.
This is highly moronic. The point the author made is that Machida, on the whole, is an excessively boring fighter. He’s an effective striker, you say? Then why is he one of the lowest striking fighters in the UFC? He has a defensive style, you say? This is the Ultimate -wait for it- FIGHTING Championship. If you want some “sweep the leg, Johnny!” bullshit? Rent The Karate Kid. This isn’t a tournament, it’s a full blown fight. It contact that counts, and Machida provides very little to none of it. He has for practically his entire career, jobbing fighters who HAVE pursued him, chased him around the ring or octagon in an effort to -wait for it again- PLEASE A PAYING AUDIENCE WHO CAME TO WITNESS A OMG! FIGHT. So basically, this clownjob’s “skill” is a cardio exhibition. Chase the rabbit, little greyhound, until you’re tired from trying to holy combat, Batman! engage an opponent, and then twinkletoes can dance on in, do a couple cutesy Macchio moves, and point out a victory? Really.
It’s NOT all about knockouts, it can be about submissions, too. I adore Sobral, the guy hasn’t knocked out many opponents, and does a similar cat and mouse thing, but here’s the catch, the mammoth difference: most of his victories have come via submission. He finished the fight. Keyword, people : Finished. This is something Machida cannot and seemingly does not want to do, and to me, not trying to finish your opponent, instead possessing some corny karate tournement point system mentality, is horrible for business.
It’s a business, in case you failed to remember that, which seeing there are Machida groupies, some have.
A big part of my logic behind the article also had to do with how Machida is exploiting the 10-9 scoring system that truly isn’t based on octagon control or aggression. Instead, these U.S. judges aren’t very different from the Japanese judges who scored Pride fights as an overall fight, not round by round. Machida is just doing the least he can do to win. It’s only effective in a controlled environment with time limits.
I do believe he truly does. I think he approaches fights with a boxers mentality, and after reading this, i went back and looked at a few of his fights again, looking for signs of it. The most notables of course are the Penn and Ortiz fights, where he seemed to “duck and cover” until the end of the rounds where magically, hes like a gallon of gunpowder on the Fourth of July. Penn also lost his fight unanimously (At a catch weight 30 pounds over his norm, btw. How did the classy Machida respond? By coming in weighing 15 over his, not 15 under.) But if anyone watched that fight, Penn dictated the pace, the aggression, he put Machida on the ringmat for about 2 minutes, and worked fluidly. Yet…he lost that round? Interesting. The second round couldve gone either way, but it’s in this round that the signs truly appear, Machida is doing his best going through the motions dance, when at the end of the round, he pops off for a four or so hit combo, Penn responds with a three hitter, before the ref seperates, and instructs them to their corners. This is an ageless tactic in boxing, what’s known as “winning the round”, meaning that it didn’t matter what happened during the prior 2:45 of the round, those last 15 seconds were wild! In reality, they really weren’t. It’s a cheap ploy and it’s made boxing for the most part, well, lame. If you want evidence of this horrible tactic, look no further than Oscar vs. Manny. In three or so of those rounds Oscar did some goofy jab-o-rama nonsense, none of which really connected, but hey, it looked amazing! to try and impress the judges.
Impress the judges.
I’m guessing most of the people who are “Pro-Machida”, don’t attend UFC events, because if they did, i’m certain they wouldn’t like throwing down A LOT of cash(in other words, a hell of a lot more than 50 ppv bucks), to watch a guy dodge around for 15 minutes.
I saw some defense wins championships jargon too in some sad attempt to make it sound like Machida is an impressive fighter, but uh, the sport thats applied in the most? features tenacious defenses that GET AFTER YOU. Anyone who’s watched football this year can safely say that James Harrison, Troy Polomalu and co. didn’t sit back on their laurels and expect to just win the game by being there. They ATTACKED the offense, and in a sense, were offensive in nature themselves. This analogy is horrid, and hearing some pseudo-elitist apply it makes it moreso.
There were Spurs comparisons, saying that fans think they’re boring. This is also a severely dumb comparison. Tony Parker is anything BUT boring. The Spurs are highly offensive, the problem and what makes most fans dislike them are the smarmy approach, the hey, we’re just a humble team attitude, yet they have easily the dirtiest defender in the game, and their two best offensive threats are notorious floppers, diving to the basket with abandon, with no decent shot at well, making a shot, drawing contact from the wall of bodies they dive into, and then acting as if they’ve been shot on the court. Nothing boring about that. At least it’s playing with some measure of abandon.
Lastly…the Liddell comparison. He’s a counter puncher as well. HUGE difference, though…Liddell actually knocks out people for a living. Watching Machida groupies actually sink to these depths if sickingly ironic. This is a guy who, aside from being worshipped mostly by the unlearned new MMA audience(Which must drive Machida fans insane, insane i tell you! Silly noobs.), is a guy who finishes fights. Machida doesn’t. It almost does the work for me, really.
“If you’re not a fan of Machida, you’re not a true fan of MMA.”
Really?
How about this, if you can justify spending 400 dollars to anxiously watch a guy dance around for 13 of 15 minutes, you’re a true fan of MMA. Because that’s what i paid to see it live, not on a television, and i fully expect finishes. Nothing, and i mean NOTHING on Earth can justify not wanting to fight professionally for the sake of finishing. Keep the point system in Amateur tourneys, and boxing, where it belongs.
One more thing, for the people who actually had the nerve on the blogosphere to say that Thiago Silva doesn’t deserve to face Machida…wow, how clueless are you. A guy who finished 12 of his 13 fights before the judge’s card isn’t worthy of the decision master? If anything, that outlook should be reversed.
Clayton, I more or less agree with you (in fact, I’ve made many of the exact same arguments).
I do think that Machida is a very technical striker. I do think that he has a very illusive and effective style, but I also think it’s boring.
There’s a reason why I’m a die-hard MMA fan and not as enthusiastic boxing fan, and Lyoto Machida presents a problem. It’s hard for me to be enthusiastic about predictability. It just is.
“Keyword, people : Finished.??”
Machida finished Soukoudjou.
Ortiz???
– Finished only 4 times in his career
– Randy Couture could not finish Tito Ortiz
GSP was not able to stop Jon Fitch. What’s my point? I have no point. Chris Lytle will bang just for the sake of banging, with no care of the fight’s outcome. He only cares about his performance. Lyoto Machida is only concerned with his performance, his discipline, his focus.
I have no point. Koscheck and Matt Hughes could not finish Lytle.
So do we hold decision victories against fighters?
without factoring agression and control
It is easier for a judge to quantify strikes as opposed to aggression. Control is definitely something you can quantify. Watch any match with a strong wrestler. Note, Chuck Liddell controlled the pace of his fight against Rashad Evans, he was also more aggressive.
WOW!!! Is this the biggest thread on this site?? I guess folks will be elated if Thiago Silva wins via anything.
I’m just glad that Dana White appreciates Lyoto’s style.
Folks SHOULD be elated, lol. Oh, and if you honestly believe Dana White appreciates anything Lyoto does beyond becoming a blatant topic for whats wrong with MMA vs. Boxing, i guess you’re on to something. After all, isn’t it White himself who tosses out bonuses for…FINISHING FIGHTS.
And please for the love of god stop mentioning Sokoudjou, the guy has a near career .500 record after ten fights, can you say overrated? People have long though Franklin was overhyped. Ortiz? Really. He’s been a non factor for years. Don’t get me started on Bonnar, he’s a stepping stone for other fighters, and all because of one single fight in his career…THAT HE LOST. So really, beyond fighting one truly legit fight against a massively overweight B.J. Penn who went up 30 pounds to take a catch fight and whom Machida couldn’t even lose a few himself to actually be somewhat near the same weight, which kind of makes it non legit after all, who has this guy fought??? Couple that with the fact that he’s STILL a duck and run fighter even against perennial midcarders, and it’s just bad for business.
You are correct in that you have no point. The people you mention fully engage their opponents, not snoozefest chessmatch them to death by circling the outside of the octagon for 13 minutes. They fully intend to finish said opponent by bringing their skillset and applying it ON their opponent, not waiting for a chance to apply it. It’s called imposing one’s will. I won’t fully knock Machida, i’m completely aware that the guy is a karate phenom, and i know he’s magic to watch in a karate tourney, but this dude has also been practicing BJJ for nearly 15 years, and last i checked, they aren’t a passive bunch.
Perhaps this will solidify the arguement against Machida’s so called octagon style…he has fought three? legit fighters, earning a decision against two, but but that still does not excuse 6 decisions in ten fights against journeymen and fighters new to the MMA rules. He has not fought a single one of the top tier fighters in his own weight class yet(And please, pleaseeee, do not say Franklin or Ortiz.), so truth be told he’s seriously untested and in that regard also not worthy of this massive praise heaped upon him.
In all fairness, here is hoping tonight’s fight with Silva starts that trend on a legitimate note.
I think the judges and referee really favored Machida’s style tonight.
“Whatever, whoever, I am here.”
You guys know I’m a shameless Lyoto Machida fan.
I guess Thiago Silva was overrated.
Franklin’s overrated?? Ortiz is a non-factor that is really tough to beat.
Wow before the fight we had a million people on here with new comments about how Machida sucks and can’t or doesn’t know how to finish. Where did you guys go? I see someone who’s a Machida fan posted at 12AM. Are you guys hiding now because he answered to all of your negative comments about him? By the way no one seems to talk about how many times he downs an opponent in a fight with “Precision Strikes” like he did to Thiago “slowest puncher in UFC history” Silva. Gyaku-tsuki for the win
Vee, this is a huge step for Machida. It’s a hard to dispute that he can finish after the asswhupping he gave Thiago.
I’d like to see him get another knockout before getting a title fight (as much as he deserves one, being 15-0), and if Rampage beats Jardine, he’ll have the opportunity to beat another decent name before stepping into the main event spot.
Honestly I don’t see the ability to KO as a requirement of proof that he’s a good fighter or worthy of title contention. But I understand where you’re coming from.
It is only a matter of time before Thiago Silva begins to be called out by fans as low rate fighter. He may have a suspect chin . . . Lyoto exposed him first.
I really do hope that MMA fans understand that Lyoto did not do anything differently in this fight. He fought with the same style and strategy. Just like Royce Gracie.
Side note, I think it is interesting that some fans dismisses Machida’s stoppage against Sokoudjou after the fact. Prior to their match people were touting him as the guy to give Lyoto problems but he was poorly exposed. The only guy to call Sokoudjou out was John Hackleman.
Man, these anti-Machida fans are total pussies. Get a life bitches.
Waka Waka go Machida