There are a lot of things that bug me about Lyoto Machida.
He’s a striker who hasn’t knocked out a UFC opponent. He talks at length about this striking style that doesn’t finish. He fights off of his back foot. He throws combinations almost as rarely as he moves forwards. He gets credit as being the top striker at 205, when there are a half dozen guys who have finished more fights standing up than he has.
Still, while I’m open about the problems I have with the way that Machida fights, there’s one thing I won’t deny: he’s going to get a title shot.
He’s one of the only fighters in the division without a loss on his recent record, and the only one who’s one a substantial winning streak against the opponents that the UFC cares about.
The UFC has used him as a high profile hitman. They brought him in to prove that Sokoudjou wasn’t as destructive as everyone thought. They brought him in to end the UFC career of Tito Ortiz on a note that will make it much harder for the former Champ to get resigned in a major organization.
However maliciously he might be used, though, it’s clear that the UFC likes him, and they’ve been giving him premium placement and the most substantial opponents that they are willing to let him bash by decision. It won’t be long until he gets a shot at the belt, and I think it’s fair to say that if he beats his next opponent decisively (even by decision) the UFC will see him billed as a top contender.
What’s really problematic is that none of the top guys in the division have the tools to beat Machida. All of them are going to try and do exactly what every other one of Machida’s opponents has done: chase him.
The fighter that chases Machida will loose every time, because of Machida’s counterstriking style. We saw it with Ortiz. We saw it with Heath. We saw it with Nakamura.
As painful as it may be for me to acknowledge the man who will kick your ass by decision as the next top contender for the championship when I would much rather see Thiago Silva, it’s inevitable. Thiago is hard to market. His style is exciting for me, but for the fans who like to see the fancy kicks and displays of karate-kid style combat, Machida is the easy pick with the highlight reel and the names on his hitlist.
Machida will get one more fight, probably against either Thiago or Wanderlei Silva, and as long as he keeps his record squeaky clean, he will be stepping in for a five round fight around the end of the year.
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June 25th, 2008 at 1:25pm
I am not sure he will get a title shot.
Funny, James Irvin has more knockouts than him.
Before he gets his shot I think he needs to beat someone that is a legit fighter in that division. maybe he could face Jardine, Wand, Thiago Silva, Chuck, someone before he gets the chance to fight for the title. It is not very marketable to have a slow and boring champion. Imagine trying to sell him as the main event…can’t on him alone…
June 25th, 2008 at 1:29pm
Willis, I’m with you.
I think that, should Lyoto become the champ, he will cause alot of problems for the UFC division.
My problem is that I don’t think that any of the guys in this division can beat him and, unless Shogun actually starts showing up and not doing that bullsh*t he pulled against Forrest, it could be a long time before we see anyone who can handle his standup.
Liddell is the only counterpuncher you mentioned, and I don’t think that Liddell is going to fight him. Though, matchup wise, I think that’s the most interesting fight.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:16pm
Willis,
Amazing enough I actually agree with you. I can’t agree more!
I don’t care who he fights to be honest. I don’t see him as a #1 contender yet, but I would like him to be seriously tested to prove whether he is a contender or pretender.
June 25th, 2008 at 6:28pm
Its a shame that the UFC is having a hard time finding someone to fight Machida. They need a 205 pound Clay Guida - someone who isn’t afraid to take a chance.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:00am
They need Clay Guidas in every weight class!
June 26th, 2008 at 8:49am
Lyoto does not have to prove that he’s a contender.
Thiago and Lyoto are both contenders without a blemish on their records.
The fact that Lyoto has not earned a victory via KO/TKO in the Octagon does not mean anything. In a fight culture that favors victories over performances, it becomes really difficult to ignore Lyoto and Thiago. It’s more than obvious that the fighters in the UFC and many organizations are aware of Lyoto Machida and the potential match-up problems. Brandon Vera may eventually disclose his reason for turning down a July 19th Machida match.
Ok, I may be hyperbole but . . . there a pretty famous boxer who’s considered boring by many fight experts because he doesn’t care to engage in an all out war. He’s very elusive and usually maintains his defensive stance just like Machida. He’s also undefeated just like Machida. And just like Machida, he can be beaten but no one has figured out how to do it. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
“He’s one of the least guys I would like to fight. Not for his toughness or anything. It’s just his style is so hard to prepare for. I knew he would beat “The African Assassin”. . . . You know who Machida is like? He’s so boring, but he’s like the Larry Holmes of MMA. He’ll f*cking beat everyone. . . . Machida is a scary guy. He’s going to be a hard guy to beat.”
- John Hackleman, Chuck Liddell’s main trainer and corner-man.
Source: “http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content1658.html?PHPSESSID=4346db3d60d836d25a581b5f938440ce”
Thiago vs Wanderlei would be interesting because Thiago is a Wanderlei fan.
Curious, who is really a number one contender in a very interchangeable division?
Who would Chuck Liddell have to beat to get a rematch against someone who beat him twice? And would you want to see him lose a 3rd match against Quinton Jackson?
If Rashad Evans beat Chuck, which I DOUBT will ever happen, does the undefeated Evans name gets tossed into the top contenders category?
June 26th, 2008 at 8:58am
Error:
Here’s the actual MMAMath string.
Machida > Ortiz > Forrest > Jardine > Liddell > Wanderlei > Rampage
Shogun fits some where between Forrest and Rampage. I think its safe to say Thiago Silva needs to fight a “big name” contender. Note, his easy victory over Houston Alexander automatically places him in that string because of Jardine’s victory over Liddell and Forrest. Btw, Thiago would definitely own Jardine, he will just have to watch out for Keith’s high and low kicks.
This is pretty much stupid thinking, I’m really bored at work. Let’s get the very durable Matt Hamill up against any of the aformentioned LHW contenders.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:59am
I can’t believe Dana hasn’t kicked Machida out of the UFC yet. He’s a heavier version of Kalib Starnes. I’ll leave to others whether he has any talent at all. For me, he’s a wimp. Watching him almost ruins every UFC he’s in.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:50am
Ahhh come on. Lyoto’s a wimp? A heavy version of Starnes? That’s a wee bit harsh Craig. I’m not going make the whole elitist or purist argument about his style versus entertainment factor but I think many people, well many fighters definitely recognize him as a tough fighter.
You should really check out his fights to see if he “back pedals” or moves back-forth and side to side. It really confuses fights because they get tagged during their chase. And when a GREAT LHW like Tito Ortiz had the opportunity to clinch or take down Lyoto, he was pushed around, controlled and thrown to the mat by a better fighter. I’m almost sure Machida will be beaten sooner or later possibly by a real aggressive Wanderlei-like fighter.
Ehhh, forget it. It doesn’t really makes any sense to make an argument for Machida. You know what, he’s a wimp, he runs all the time. Yet, the UFC keeps him on the roster and Joe Silva has a difficult finding a suitable competitor.
In the mean time, enjoy Machida’s match against Bonnar. Look how fustrated Bonnar looks through out the fight.
http://mmaglory.blogspot.com/2008/05/lyoto-machida-vs-stephan-bonnar.html
Another error caught:
Forrest ? Liddell
June 26th, 2008 at 11:40am
“Machida > Ortiz > Forrest > Jardine > Liddell > Wanderlei > Rampage”
This is rediculous! You seriously think that because Machida beat Tito that he can beat Forrest and all of those guys? What kind of Koo-Aid are you drinking?
Are you saying that since Chuck beat Wand he should be able to beat Rampage right? Hmm… not so much!
Machida is an ok fighter, but in the world of action that we live in he is merely just another fighter. He will get wins, but the UFC can’t market a boring fighter. The UFC is a business, and the business is about money! If people are going to tune in to watch him fight then it is only a matter of time….
June 26th, 2008 at 11:47am
Willis! You are on a roll my friend!
Vee,
You can’t compare Mayweather to Machida…You can’t…They are differant sports. Plus, Mayweather is one of the best, can we honestly say that about Machida? Not right now we can’t.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:54am
I hear what you’re saying (concerning Machida’s frustrating style), Josh. But, what frustrates me more than Machida is the mass of fighters who are reluctant to fight him. Liddell is supposed to be the guy who will “fight anyone”, but Hackleman flat-out admitted that Machida is a horrible matchup for Liddell. I’d be willing to bet that they’ve had turned down that fight, or they would if it were offered to them. Tito reportedly had a cow when forced to fight Machida on the last fight of his contract. Dave Meltzer has reported that numerous fighters have turned down fights with Machida because they didn’t want likely losses on their records.
Consequently, I’m more pissed off at these posers than I am at Machida’s “boring” style. As a matter of fact, I think Machida is one of the greatest fighters ever for putting together strategies that make other fighters look bad. When a fighter overextends, like Sokoudjou did, Machida is willing and able to finish them quickly. I’m going to stop holding Machida accountable for “boredom” and start holding the rest of the LHW division accountable for not being able to stop him.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:46pm
Fred, the problem is that there’s a very fine line between caution and avoidance. Either way, it’s only fun to watch if you like strategy and decisions. I personally like to watch fighters engage more, but it doesn’t have to lead to a TKO or an immediate armbar. I’m more fascinated with watching how fighters counter offense with offense. Defense only wins if you can score more. Really good discussion so far!
June 26th, 2008 at 2:28pm
D wins championships….in basketball and football….
I enjoy watching Koscheck fight. Most say that he is boring and is a king of the lay and pray, however I felt his fight with GSP was perfectly executed. It was boring if you didn’t understand what he was doing. Maybe this is what some of the Machida fans are seeing…
Either way fighters that push like Sherk (minus Penn fight), Guida, the top 5 in the 205 division, GSP, Silva, Penn, Stevenson will always appeal to the fans.
The exciting fighters are what put the fans in the seats and keep them buying the fights.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:23pm
^Willis, I guess you missed the part where I wrote “this is a failed attempt at a funny” You’re absolutely right, I was not serious. The MMAMath just goes to show that there are really no #1 contenders in the LHW division. While Forrest beat Shogun (an injured-tired, whatever Shogun) he lost to Jardine who lost to Houston who lost to Thiago Silva. The #1 contender slot in this division is useless.
^Curtis, What Machida does and Mayweather does is worlds apart. The comparison is in the approach - Defense first. There are many people (Read: boxing pundits) who think Mayweather is a boring defensive fight who fails (scared) to engage. Larry Merchant and woman-beater, Jim Lampley are HUGE Mayweather critics, because unlike the greats he will not engage in a toe to toe exchange, that excites the fans.
^Fred, WOW!!! WELL PUT.
^Brandt, many people would LOVE to see fighters*[1-2] (see examples below) counter offense with offense. I love it. But a fighter who counters with defense like Mayweather fustrates fighters like Oscar De-La Hoya and wins with a SD. Hatton called Mayweather a clever trickster because during that fight he used defense, a little dirty boxing (pushing, inside elbows).
Many fighters like a Machida, Mayweather, Roy Jones Jr. and others would like to take less blows to the head AND unnecessary blows to the head so they can have a longer career and avoid future unforseen head traumas a-la Muhammad Ali.
The Pheonix Suns countered offense with offense. Despite having great seasons and 2-time NBA MVP Steve Nash, they did not win a championship. But the fans love them and they’re a pleasure to watch. Meanwhile a team called the Spurs are considered very boring.
[1] I love Clay Guida, he loves to put it out there. I just hope people don’t penalize him for losing 3 out of 4 fights in 2007. I thought he beat Griffin. He counters offense with offense but ended up with a L against a fighter he was clearly beating in Huerta.
[2] And if this does not drive the point, I don’t know what will. Wanderlei Silva’s style is head-first aggressive offense. John Hackleman knew Wanderlei was a PERFECT match-up for Chuck’s style. Too bad Wanderlei never attempted a takedown or submission for that fight. He wanted to please the crowd, the same crowd who would go on to question whether he belonged in the UFC for dropping 3 fights in a row. I’m not sure, didn’t Dana or the UFC in general say his Jardine match was kind of a do-or-die situation?
SO what happens when a top LHW is viewed as boring?!? The a decision for Joe Silva and the UFC. We will see.
But just like Fred, it is kind of sad that Machida’s opponents are not able to force him to engage, take him down and ground and pound the snot out of his elusive butt.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:56pm
“As painful as it may be for me to acknowledge the man who will kick your ass by decision as the next top contender for the championship when I would much rather see Thiago Silva, it’s inevitable. Thiago is hard to market. His style is exciting for me, but for the fans who like to see the fancy kicks and displays of karate-kid style combat, Machida is the easy pick with the highlight reel and the names on his hitlist.”
Are you suggesting that Thiago Silva is hard to market, and Lyoto Machida is easy to market?
Please don’t ever go into marketing.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:14pm
Michael: Right now Machida is easier to market. Everyone you go, you see an article about him and his fighting style that everyone loves/hates. People are more inclined to watch someone they love/hate instead of someone they don’t care much about.
But I also see how it is also difficult to market someone who isn’t explosive. Right now people will watch him to see him lose or outpoint someone. You’ll get lucky if you get anything else.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:07pm
^Brandt, I’ll agree with you right there. Right now he’s a controversial hot topic in MMA amongst the many blogs.
Check out this news. Many already know that Brandon Vera turned down a short week notice fight against Lyoto. Brandon stated that he needs more time to prepare for that fight which Lyoto accepted without any hesitation. He was also offered a fight against Dan Henderson AND Wanderlei Silva. They BOTH turned down a fight against Brandon Vera . . . well according to Brandon Vera. Machida and Silva are both coming off recent fights. Machida a grueling 3 rounds against a top LHW who nearly subbed him while Silva is coming off a very easy kick dominating less than 1 minute fight against Jardine. Henderson’s last fight was a defeat by submission in the 2nd round.
What does that say about Machida and conversely about Dan Henderson and Wanderlei Silva?
Source: http://www.cagepotato.com/2008/06/26/brandon-vera-insists-hes-not-dodging-nobody/
June 27th, 2008 at 6:06pm
“Are you suggesting that Thiago Silva is hard to market, and Lyoto Machida is easy to market?”
Yeah, I am. The fact that Lyoto Machida’s flashy style makes him attractive and his ability to speak three languages (and, more importantly, the three that matter in MMA: Portugese, Japanese and Russian) fluently makes him easy to market.
Vee, you make an excellent point that there really are no #1 contenders in this division. As exciting as the division is, it’s not clearn cut who the top is. I had a problem with Griffin being called a contender so briefly removed from the fight with Jardine, and I don’t expect to have anyone who I really believe is the top contender for a while.
June 28th, 2008 at 11:29pm
“The fact that Lyoto Machida’s flashy style makes him attractive” I see a lot of comments like this including that Machida has unique striking abilities…what fights are you guys watching?
I said I’d let others evaluate his talent, but it’s hard to watch y’all claim this guy has any talent other than backing up. I have watched most of his fights, and I have never seen any talent whatsoever…and I’m not uneducated in this sport.
I say kick the guy out of the UFC.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:09pm
Craig, did you even read my article? That’s exactly what I said.
Vee, I think it says that Machida doesn’t feel tired after the fight with Tito, which shouldn’t shock anybody, since he didn’t do anything in that fight. Running away for fifteen minutes doesn’t exactly keep a guy from getting back in the cage.
Lyoto’s fighting style gives him the ability to take fight after fight after fight because he doesn’t sustain serious damage. But it’s not like he dishes it out, either, and that’s really my problem.
I don’t know why Wanderlei would turn down that fight, though I think it may be because he wants an easy fight to get his confidence back. (Two in a row is alot better than a solitary win for a fighters confidence)
As for Dan, Dan’s last fight was at 185, and he’s been beaten twice in a row. I don’t think he wants to fight Vera, a guy who could hand him his third straight loss.
Does it mean Dan and Wanderlei are pussies? No, but it’s a little sad that they don’t want quality fights. Still, it’s understandable.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:41pm
“Lyoto’s fighting style gives him the ability to take fight after fight after fight because he doesn’t sustain serious damage. But it’s not like he dishes it out, either, and that’s really my problem.”
“claim this guy has any talent other than backing up”
I’m not going to analyze or evaluate his foot-work, positioning, posture and all those other intangibles but the end resulting evidence is clearly there.
1. Stephan Bonnar’s face looked pretty messed up.
2. Tito’s face was bloodied
3. He’s the only other guy to stop Rich Franklin.
4. He stopped Sokoudjou.
I’m sure no one will argue that Machida is a KO artist. But let’s not fault him for not being able to finish a fight by major damage, let’s just give credit to some of his tough opponents. Saying that he rarely comes out with any damage is a HUGE compliment.
————————————-
“Man, the last two fights that I saw and I watched and I told everybody, “that was a school on strategy” was Lyoto Machida against Tito Ortiz and BJ Penn when he fought in the same UFC. Man that was a school in strategy. Both of them! BJ Penn and Lyoto man. The fighters that they fought, they’re very tough, they’re very good, they’ve been in the top game for a while but those two just pulled out strategy man. A lot of people don’t use strategy, they just come in and duke it out, be a tough… But those two on that night they showed strategy. That was a school in strategy right there. I appreciate that.”
- Royce Gracie
A UFC legend who used strategy to defeat bigger and stronger guys.
Source:
http://mmayou.com/news-and-exclusive-interviews-with-mmayou/37-fighters/224-interview-with-ufc-champion-royce-gracie
July 1st, 2008 at 6:19am
Vee
I usually reserve my bashing to Curtis but you earned it this time buddy.
Sure Lyoto is a good fighter but at this point you sound more of a Machida homer than an avid MMA follower.
Curtis is a Matt Hughes guy (it is obvious), but even he knows and understands the truth.
Since we are doing quotes…
“Look man, you can listen to Jimi but you can’t hear him” Sidney Deane….
In other words you can listen to Jimi but you can’t hear him, you can see everyone’s comments about Lyoto but you can’t reason and see where they are comming from.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:06am
^Willis, I understand the bashing, but what I don’t hear-or understand is rabid fans bashing Lyoto’s talent. Entertainment factor? That’s up to everyone’s opinion. He’s a polarizing fighter, some like him and many don’t. Questioning whether he’s effective and talented in an organization (and sports culture) where winning (and entertaining) is everything, I think fans tend to overlook facts.
I’m just a passionate fan posting comments while I’m at work. Just note, that in between my pro-Machida rant, there’s more than enough evidence and sources to back up my crap. That doesn’t not make me any less of an avid MMA fan.
And . . . awww nothing else extra to add but this. Chuck Liddell often said that Tito doesn’t like to get hid. He often punches then covers up quickly. That was evident in his fight against Griffin and Lyoto. I’ll stop.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:34am
Royce’s comments just prove that there are at least two categories of MMA fans: those who like guys who come to fight technically AND aggressively and those who come to win even if it means their fights are boring and they have to backpedal 14:30 of every fight.
Both the BJ Penn and Machida fights were boring at UFC 84. The Penn fight was only exciting in the last few seconds. The rest of it was a STRATEGIC MISTAKE by Sherk to stand with Penn. Come on, that guys arms are 10″ long max. How did he expect to EVER hit Penn. But I don’t have anything against Penn in general, other than when he was coming in with inadequate cardio. He’s a great fighter and usually fights aggressively with technical wizardry.
Machida every time, Kos when he fought Sanchez in the 2nd fight and Kaleb Starnes when he fought Quarry…these are examples of pussy fights.
Dana must have sleepless nights worrying that Machida will actually take the LHW title. Think about that, the only fights in that division that will draw crowds will be contenders.
I’m not an ardant fan of Rampage, but when he fights Machida, I’m gonna be on his side all the way. But if Rampage loses, then I’ll have to draw pleasure from Dana getting his due for not boosting Machida from the UFC while he had a chance.